Joubert

Ian_Cook


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I do wonder how people can actually have arguments about penalties for players going off their feet when everyone at every ruck was off their feet to some degree.

I agree.

I can't remember the last time I saw a ruck where EVERYONE was on their feet apart from the tackler and tackled player, both of whom were busy rolling away. 1995 perhaps?
 

soulphoenix

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And so it should. Rugby is a team game, if you leave your team behind, or they can't keep up with your break, then the defense must be allowed to compete for the ball; and if the isolated player denies them the ball he should be penalised.

...yet the laws around this situation regularly see people who are trying to win the ball penalised for a wide variety of 'technical' infringements and in other cases allowed to commit a variety of infringements based on the referees understanding - just look at what is being said on this very thread.

Players sometimes make no effort to understand decision. As a referee I never feel under pressure or react emotionally; quite the opposite.

Strange? I would've thought that the lack of understanding of a decision was the main root of frustration? I'd be more inclined to accept that some players find it extremely hard to understand decisions? Also, might I suggest that if you think you don't react emotionally at all, you can't know yourself very well - it's not humanly possible. :chin:


Not sure how you work out that it's the referees who pushed that particular ELV through?
My apologies if I am wrong, but I seem to remember an extensive period of trial and testing lead by the top referees, which in turn lead to the introduction of the ELVs.


When you say "we" you make it sound as though we referees were never players? It's not one man's mind, there are usually at least 15 players who agree with us :biggrin:
I'm not quite sure how my 'we' translated as that, however what I do know is that the rate of change in the game is so much that hanging on to your credentials of understanding based on 'years of experience', whether coach or referee, isn't ideal - the battlefield evolves and you need to know what's going on down on the ground. As for 15 people agreeing with the refs decision, good shot - cheap but good!

Referees constantly consult with players, unfortunately not all players want to learn.
Yes I agree, I would consider it a win-win if you could concede that this was also the case in reverse?
 

Rushforth


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I agree.

I can't remember the last time I saw a ruck where EVERYONE was on their feet apart from the tackler and tackled player, both of whom were busy rolling away. 1995 perhaps?

Ian, do you genuinely recall anybody rolling away of their own accord in '95? We (I played then) used our studs back then to make them do so, gently mostly.

As to Joubert, both sides played well, but also negatively. A good referee can make a better game out of it when teams are trying to win, but I for one wouldn't have a clue how to make a better game when they are simply trying not to lose.

The last three minutes were an embarrassment to the game, but just enough was done to avoid having to actually play the game, and more importantly France had been playing the same game.

Off-topic, today I reset a scrum and commented "in faster please, when I ask for it". "Don't we decide that?" said a player. No, you don't. (20.5, No Delay, not My Double capitals). Point being that although Joubert may not have had his best day in the office, he has more of a clue than the players and he didn't miss any kicks at goal and more importantly was totally impartial in offering what he saw as clear penalties to either side, even if he did make any specific mistakes either way (and trust me, even with a team of three, to those non-referees in this thread, we all make mistakes).
 

Phil E


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...yet the laws around this situation regularly see people who are trying to win the ball penalised for a wide variety of 'technical' infringements and in other cases allowed to commit a variety of infringements based on the referees understanding - just look at what is being said on this very thread.

As in life someone has to make a final decision, if it's not to be the refere, who else should it be?
Referees work very hard to be consistant through monthly meetings, coaches and assessors......but we are only human and every human will see things differently.
What other method do you suggest?

Strange? I would've thought that the lack of understanding of a decision was the main root of frustration? I'd be more inclined to accept that some players find it extremely hard to understand decisions?

Why do they find it difficult? Could it be because they don't want to understand? Whenever a captain asks why a penalty was conceded, the referee will tell them, provided it is asked in a polite manner. But how many times do we have to keep explaining the same thing, over and over, week in, week out; before players stop asking and start learning?
 

Ian_Cook


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As for 15 people agreeing with the refs decision, good shot - cheap but good!

Of course "agreeing" with a decision is not necessarily the same as being "happy" with it.
 

Ian_Cook


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I agree.

I can't remember the last time I saw a ruck where EVERYONE was on their feet apart from the tackler and tackled player, both of whom were busy rolling away. 1995 perhaps?

Ian, do you genuinely recall anybody rolling away of their own accord in '95? We (I played then) used our studs back then to make them do so, gently mostly.

I agree.

I can't remember the last time I saw a ruck where EVERYONE was on their feet apart from the tackler and tackled player, both of whom were busy being rolled away. 1995 perhaps?

Fixed that for you.
 

Mike Selig


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Speaking as a frenchman (sorry!):

Can I first of all say congratulations to New-Zealand. They have been comfortably the best team in this WC, and fully deserve their world title.

Secondly I would like to say how proud I am of the french effort. Undoubtedly our best game of the WC, and probably our best game for a long long time. Awesome intensity, never gave up and played themselves off their feet.

Now onto the refereeing: I have to say I thought Joubert was OK. Not great, and probably not upto the standards he's shown previously, but I don't understand where all the "one-sided" comments are coming from. France sealed off plenty of times, Dusautoir made sure he slowed NZ ball down quite a bit. Thought the FK against Servat at the line-out for delaying was very good refereeing. Yes, McCaw was a master (as usual) of rolling "away" into players, but there you go, as I said Dusautoir did plenty of that too. There were a few calls I questioned (when NZ were going through the phases in 2nd half and France defended really well, thought at one point I think it was McCaw who held on when Dusautoir was on his feet; thought the final NZ turnover came from a side entry; a high tackle on Trinh-Duc leading upto NZ's winning penalty (TD ducked it); EDIT: I am sure Kiwi fans have and will question decisions which went our way also, please don't interpret these examples as me laying into Joubert.) but I'd have to watch the game in the cold light of day to be sure. McCaw on Para was completely accidental, and one of those things. It actually helped France anyway.

ON the whole I'd give Joubert a solid 6.5 or 7. He certainly didn't have me screaming at my screen in fustration as other refs (cough Bryce cough) have in this WC.

France arguably deserved to win. But this WC has shown us numerous times you don't get anything for deserving. Well done NZ, and hopefully France's time will come.
 
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OB..


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Other than that I'd say be careful what you wish for - 30 players on a pitch who can all quote law to you, clause and verse, might put you under a fair bit of pressure.
I have never come across a situation anything like that at the lower levels I inhabit. I tried to persuade my club's 1st XV squad that they would benefit from doing the basic ELRA course, but nobody was interested.

At the top levels they all get instruction from top referees on what is and is not legal. That is in fact why McCaw is so effective - he knows just where the line is and plays right up to it. Which means he occasionally transgresses it. So does Pocock. So did Neil Back.

Anyway, IMHO it's a ridiculous idea for any sport; from minis all the way through, games are taught by coaching not books. Imagine the participation fallout if we started giving everyone a book or should we ban enjoyment too?
Part of the coach's job is to make sure his players know the laws that they are supposed to be abiding by. You don't read a law book like a novel, any more than you read through a dictionary. You get to know your way around over the years by looking up points of law when they occur. If you're a referee that happens more often that it does with players.

As for TV being used as the scapegoats for dangerous law changes, well...
I don't understand that comment.
 

the magpie


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.....and Dusutoir is not on his feet, is he!!

Hands around the ball, feet perfectly planted, it's fine. McCaw could learn a thing or two from Dusutoir about staying on his feet.
 

OB..


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Off-topic, today I reset a scrum and commented "in faster please, when I ask for it". "Don't we decide that?" said a player. No, you don't. (20.5, No Delay, not My Double capitals).
I think that sentence ought to be removed so that the referee can ensure the scrum is "Stationary and Parallel" (not my double capitals) before the feed, as required by Law 20.1 (j). Those two conflict.
 

Dixpat

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Speaking as a frenchman (sorry!):

Can I first of all say congratulations to New-Zealand. They have been comfortably the best team in this WC, and fully deserve their world title.

Secondly I would like to say how proud I am of the french effort. Undoubtedly our best game of the WC, and probably our best game for a long long time. Awesome intensity, never gave up and played themselves off their feet.

Now onto the refereeing: I have to say I thought Joubert was OK. Not great, and probably not upto the standards he's shown previously, but I don't understand where all the "one-sided" comments are coming from. France sealed off plenty of times, Dusautoir made sure he slowed NZ ball down quite a bit. Thought the FK against Servat at the line-out for delaying was very good refereeing. Yes, McCaw was a master (as usual) of rolling "away" into players, but there you go, as I said Dusautoir did plenty of that too. There were a few calls I questioned (when NZ were going through the phases in 2nd half and France defended really well, thought at one point I think it was McCaw who held on when Dusautoir was on his feet; thought the final NZ turnover came from a side entry; a high tackle on Trinh-Duc leading upto NZ's winning penalty (TD ducked it)) but I'd have to watch the game in the cold light of day to be sure. McCaw on Para was completely accidental, and one of those things. It actually helped France anyway.

ON the whole I'd give Joubert a solid 6.5 or 7. He certainly didn't have me screaming at my screen in fustration as other refs (cough Bryce cough) have in this WC.

France arguably deserved to win. But this WC has shown us numerous times you don't get anything for deserving. Well done NZ, and hopefully France's time will come.

Mike, congratulations on the most sensible post I have read following the game.

It astounds me [and I confess I have been as guilty as others] that when we watch a game and the team we hoped/thought should win didn't we find fault with decisions that affected our side and conveniently overlook those committed by our team which went unpunished

Also fair play to the management of the French team who have chosen not to air any criticism of CJ's performance
 

Mike Selig


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Also fair play to the management of the French team who have chosen not to air any criticism of CJ's performance

Very true. Dusautoir was asked by french media (I paraphrase slightly perhaps in translating) "what did you feel about the final minutes, when the referee never penalised the all-blacks?" His answer: "I don't want to criticise the referee, he is one of the top referees in the world. We didn't do enough to force a penalty." Classy.
 

iansimcox

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It astounds me [and I confess I have been as guilty as others] that when we watch a game and the team we hoped/thought should win didn't we find fault with decisions that affected our side and conveniently overlook those committed by our team which went unpunished

So true. And normally why it's a good idea to let the emotion of the game out before you start talking about it.

For instance, this morning I was convinced that Joubert had missed so much of NZ foul-play and that he was a big part of why the team I wanted to win didn't.

Thinking about it now, however, I still think he had a poor game (which is a shame because he's usually a very good referee) but given that both sides struggled to get any quick ball it just suggests that there was too much going on at the bottom of the ruck from both sides. If he had been firmer early on, so players knew where the line was, there was no guarantee that would have helped the French. Perhaps the final score flattered them and a more open game would have been a one sided try-fest - we'll never know.

Hopefully though Joubert will use this experience to continue to grow and perform at the high level we have come to expect from. It's not easy. If he pings players early and often, you get grief from the other side who will say "stop blowing up and let the players compete for the ball". For me, he erred too much toward leniency today and the game suffered for it.
 

Robert Burns

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Ian,

You're missing the penalty where the French winger was offside at the ruck, I felt sorry for him because he went early, but stopped and retreated, so didn't have an effect, I think it was called in by Rolland.
 

soulphoenix

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I should perhaps say that I do referee occasionally and as such have always had a positive response.

As in life someone has to make a final decision, if it's not to be the refere, who else should it be?
I believe that in rugby the referee is there to ensure that the players play within the boundaries of the game, I don't think I have suggested otherwise.

Referees work very hard to be consistant through monthly meetings, coaches and assessors......but we are only human and every human will see things differently.
What other method do you suggest?
Players also work hard to be correct through weekly training. As a captain I always say to the ref before the game 'When we're perfect then I'll expect you to be.' If you look back you will see that my original issue was not with referees but with the law changes that have IMO lead to the current pressure on the respect between player and officials, a respect that has existed for so long in this game. The trend is for referees to be defensive rather than understand the confusion and from this stance begin lashing out harshly.

Why do they find it difficult? Could it be because they don't want to understand?

I rest my case - as in life, a preconception like this can only lead to intolerance.

Whenever a captain asks why a penalty was conceded, the referee will tell them, provided it is asked in a polite manner. But how many times do we have to keep explaining the same thing, over and over, week in, week out; before players stop asking and start learning?

My philosophy on refereeing goes a bit like this: a good referee wants to help the contestants to play within the rules, a bad referee likes punishing the players for breaking the rules. Unfortunately such powerful, privileged positions do tend to attract the types that enjoy the latter. As a referee I'd be quite happy explaining the intricacies for the rest of my life - I would've thought this would be part of the job description?
 

menace


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My philosophy on refereeing goes a bit like this: a good referee wants to help the contestants to play within the rules, a bad referee likes punishing the players for breaking the rules. Unfortunately such powerful, privileged positions do tend to attract the types that enjoy the latter. As a referee I'd be quite happy explaining the intricacies for the rest of my life - I would've thought this would be part of the job description?

Sounds fair enough - but equally it could be said that 'good players play within the laws, while bad (and sometimes filthy) players like breaking every single one of them. Unfortunately this team sport called rugby tend to attract the types that enjoy the later'. And there you have it - it takes all sorts and all sorts play "our game". Referees are generally on the field to help - not hinder. One thing I can certainly say from my experience - I've never ever seen a referee verbally or physically abuse a "bad" player for making mistakes - deliberate or otherwise...yet the opposite seems to happen on any given weekend?

oh - I meant to add that luckily on both sides that our game is made up of 99% good!
 

ddjamo


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my first comment was CJ let the tackle get out of control and then had to live with it. I still think 15 points in a match like that is wrong. wonder what % of phases really produced quick ball? bet it's lower than WC averages.

CJ was even tolerant with the disrupting won ball; step over the ruck and kick at it, slightly slap the 9's arm, etc, etc...

I think that just like clancey he went in there with a game plan, it back-fired and it was too late to adjust so he made of it what he could.

not impressed at all. 4.5
 

Ian_Cook


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Hands around the ball, feet perfectly planted, it's fine. McCaw could learn a thing or two from Dusutoir about staying on his feet.

Err, you obviously don't see what I see...

attachment.jpg

1. Left hand around the ball, right hand on the the ground away from the ball supporting his body-weight. The test is surely, if you take that hand away, would the player still be able stand. Looking at the angle of his right leg, I would say that is impossible, he would sink onto his right knee.


2. No. 10, the tackler has not yet released the ball carrier, so what is Dusutoir doing trying to rip the ball. I thought tackle guidlines were

First - the tackler must release the tackled player...

Then - the fetcher (having entered through the tackle gate, can compete for the ball.
 

Andy P

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Err, you obviously don't see what I see...

View attachment 1818

2. No. 10, the tackler has not yet released the ball carrier, so what is Dusutoir doing trying to rip the ball. I thought tackle guidlines were

First - the tackler must release the tackled player...

Then - the fetcher (having entered through the tackle gate, can compete for the ball.


something NZ failed to do most of the game.
 
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