red card decision Canada v Scotland [MERGED]

Browner

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The practice of leading with a forearm has arisen from the now valueless tackle around the legs.... Now we have RL forearm smashing to combat RL chest tackling created by a flat attack v a flat defence !!!! Aarrgghhhhh

A look at any Union match from 1970 onward & you'll see very little of this ..... But its as calculated as deliberately driving your knees up toward a would-be tackler was in those days!

Conversely watch RL 1970+ and the style its rife...

Plague spread needs ridding !

Well done that ref, more backbone required,.

I always penalise the forearm lunge/smash,
A) its incendary
B) its illegal
C) its soon cut out
D) players prefer not receiving them !
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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..if you feel your bent elbow, there are two bony surfaces, one on the inside, one on the outside, with no give between them. and the fall onto the outside of the elbow drove the inner point into the rib hard enough to break it.

You're taliking condyles!

Although in the strict anatomical sense that joke misfires.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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The practice of leading with a forearm has arisen from the now valueless tackle around the legs.... Now we have RL forearm smashing to combat RL chest tackling created by a flat attack v a flat defence !!!! Aarrgghhhhh

A look at any Union match from 1970 onward & you'll see very little of this ..... But its as calculated as deliberately driving your knees up toward a would-be tackler was in those days!

Conversely watch RL 1970+ and the style its rife...

Plague spread needs ridding !

Well done that ref, more backbone required,.

I always penalise the forearm lunge/smash,
A) its incendary
B) its illegal
C) its soon cut out
D) players prefer not receiving them !

I thought we were going to go two whole weeks without you blaming some aspect of a Rugby Union game on Rugby League.
 

Browner

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We can - it's just you! :biggrin:

Those that refuse to acknowledge Unions changes since professionalism and the drift of RL coaches/players back into union as being the root cause are deluded IMO.

Or maybe you watch different 1980s videos than I ?
 

RobLev

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Which ones? If in the second one you mean Lomu on Vickery - of course not. He dips his shoulder into the tackle, but doesn't swing the elbow into Vickery's head. I can't see swinging elbows in any of the collisions in the first clip either.

For me, in the OP the second move - the push off with the outside of arm after contact - by the Red BC is fine; it's the first move - the swinging elbow as he went into contact - that did the damage and looked to me like a RC.

Edit: I've just realised that you linked part way through the first video. No, Yellow 1 is not swinging an elbow. He dips his shoulder/upper arm into contact, and then pushes away with the arm after contact. Play on.
 
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winchesterref


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I'm glad you didn't ref games I used to play in RobLev
 

RobLev

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I'm glad you didn't ref games I used to play in RobLev

I suspect that might depend on whether you're the recipient or donor of the elbow...

And, again, to make it clear, the eventual fend with the outside of the arm/elbow is "Play on". I see however a swing of the shoulders and elbow into the contact prior to that.

Stepping the video through, I see the elbow swinging forward slightly trailing the right shoulder (not part of any normal running technique, since he is stepping forward with his right foot); contact is made elbow to jaw ("RC"); the elbow is forced back against Red's chest by the impact; then Red fends off with the outside of his arm ("Play on").
 

Browner

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In Lomu example the first two fends are to avoid the defender, the run at vickery has much more serious (concussion related long term) ramifications

but its a good clip, the ball carrying forearm arm is a being offered as a battering ram

I'm not precious about this, I'm just saying ....... That whenever I threw my forearm at a potential tackler I knew exactly what I was doing and why.

My abiding image of Jonah Lomu wasn't these bosh's ...it was the way he shifted his hips at full pace and handed off people ..almost undefendable when in space ...his try v Ireland in 1995 rwc epitomised this skill.

The code has changed (maybe lomu started a new trend?) as has the focus on collision/concussions and this focus will intensify as there greater insurance and government interest in the subject.

Don'tget me wrong BFG, the type of forearm use we saw in the OP vid is pseudo subtle forearming rather than blatent smashing, but its the same weapon being used each time.

The risks are in the increased sizes of BC's , whereas heads /skulls/ cheek bones/cushioning between brain &skull haven't grown to the same ratio as players...

In juniors rugby its scringeworthy sometimes, lawmakers need to find away to make the game less impact/collision based especially at junior level IMO.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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Those that refuse to acknowledge Unions changes since professionalism and the drift of RL coaches/players back into union as being the root cause are deluded IMO.

Or maybe you watch different 1980s videos than I ?

The root cause of what?

Defensive lines that communicate and work hard?

Players that are fit?

Players that can tackle?

A professional ethos?

Players that can pass and catch (as opposed to a select few in certain positions)?

Players that run and support?

If anyone is deluded its people that think every game of Rugby Union in the pre-professional era was a carbon copy of the 1973 Barbarians v New Zealand game - it wasn't - a lot of it was rubbish. NB If you want a good look at people tackling high have a look at Bryan Williams and Grant Batty in that game.

In terms of "professional Rugby" the Welsh and Carwyn James realised that coaching and the "professional" ethos kicked off at London Welsh in the late sixties was the way to go. England, despite the aberation of a GS win in 1980 continued to bumble along until Geoff Cooke and Bumface in 1988. Bill Beaumont's autobiography tells of him and John Pullin working out their lineout calls in the hotel carpark on Friday night before the possibles v probables game in the mid seventies.

This England "Golden Age" between 1988 and 1995 pre-edated the professional era but things were well on the move before 1996 dropped on us all. BCM tells us in his books (unless I am mistaken) that had RU not gone professional then we would have been looking at a Packeresque Rugby circus at the top end. You could argue that's what we have now but at least it's successful and generally entertaining (at least the S15 is)

SCW realised Phil Larder had loads to offer and other RL appointments added to the development of the game.

Edwards and Farrell et al have secured jobs at the top of their profession because that's what they are - professionals.

They don't have a monopoly on good ideas or shrewd coaching but they have helped up the ante and give other coaches with RL backgrounds or not a benchmark to aspire to.

The biggest blight on the game is still the scrum at elite level and not some plague that RL has infected RU with.

You probably thought the 1963 England v Wales game with 111 lineouts was a good watch.:biggrin:
 
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TheBFG


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In Lomu example the first two fends are to avoid the defender, the run at vickery has much more serious (concussion related long term) ramifications

but its a good clip, the ball carrying forearm arm is a being offered as a battering ram

I'm not precious about this, I'm just saying ....... That whenever I threw my forearm at a potential tackler I knew exactly what I was doing and why.

My abiding image of Jonah Lomu wasn't these bosh's ...it was the way he shifted his hips at full pace and handed off people ..almost undefendable when in space ...his try v Ireland in 1995 rwc epitomised this skill.

The code has changed (maybe lomu started a new trend?) as has the focus on collision/concussions and this focus will intensify as there greater insurance and government interest in the subject.

Don'tget me wrong BFG, the type of forearm use we saw in the OP vid is pseudo subtle forearming rather than blatent smashing, but its the same weapon being used each time.

The risks are in the increased sizes of BC's , whereas heads /skulls/ cheek bones/cushioning between brain &skull haven't grown to the same ratio as players... or an ability to tackle properly (get your head out of the way)

In juniors rugby its scringeworthy sometimes, lawmakers need to find away to make the game less impact/collision based especially at junior level IMO.

TYGFTFY :wink:

if you want to show juniors how to and how NOT to tackle watch the difference between Burns (1st test) and Farrell (2 nd test) Burns put Nonu down every time he ran at him because he tackled him low, whereas Farrell went high and got bumped off time after time.
 
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Ian_Cook


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I suspect that might depend on whether you're the recipient or donor of the elbow...

The only reason the Scottish player in the OP video was a "recipient of the elbow" was due to his own piss-poor tackling technique. He was off balance, with his weight back on his heels. Had he tried to tackle properly, by putting his shoulder where he actually put his head, he probably would not have been hurt.


NOTE: Mike Blair, former Scotland scrum half, thinks the RC was BS and sets a bad precedent

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/27857889

In fact a lot of Scottish newspapers are saying was either wrong or debatable

http://blogs.theprovince.com/2014/0...her-discipline-from-his-red-card-vs-scotland/

If this is how the game is going, then it is becoming a game for soft-cocks.
 
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Rushforth


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NOTE: Mike Blair, former Scotland scrum half, thinks the RC was BS and sets a bad precedent

...

If this is how the game is going, then it is becoming a game for soft-cocks.

Actually Mike Blair went so far as to write "For me, it wasn't even a penalty". Regardless of intent, there was (striking) contact between the elbow and head, so the entry level surely must be a penalty.

I have no problem with those who think a RC is too much - I fully agree with them!

At the international level if a penalty decision needs to be reversed for law 10, I would expect it to be mandatory that a card is also given. Perhaps given that it was late in the game the referee overcooked it by making it a full red.

What I fail to understand is your final line. Soft-cocks? The only cocks I have seen in rugby have been French (on shirts or strutting in touch). Are you trying to suggest that those who believe a card is necessary are not macho enough to be involved in rugby? I certainly hope you are not suggesting that referees should not penalise where the law (10a) is clearly broken, even if only on review.
 

Browner

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRb0XFrCQZE&feature=player_embedded

quiet day in the office, the second one of these two, RC?

I don't see either of those as deliberate forearm leading strikes.

What it does show is why young players coming into rugby should ( on average ) plan for a new career in 5-7 years time !! Smash/bash/crash.

Jack Nowell having both a knee injury and a shoulder problem despite having only played x6 premiership matches is a concern and indication of the attrition rate of the modern game.
 
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