Match Payments

[menace]

The one and the same...also part time job as the judge, jury and executioner in the High Court.

 

[Jarrod Burton]

So do you umpire because you enjoy it or do you do it as an income stream?

The last bit of my post dropped off.

I don't do any umpiring/reffing for profit, but in the case of umpiring (netball) some feeling of loyalty (likely misplaced considering how I have been treated in the lead up to finals this year) kept me going. Unfortunately, I'm hating umpiring the mixed social games now as there is little to no respect to the umpires and frankly I've got better things to do, like pre season training/torture with my club and work. The cash incentive isn't enough to keep me wanting to be there and if I was honest, with a new house to deal with and my own business to run afterhours I can always do more at home so I need to consider the best use for my time. The lack of support from higher up that is occuring in netball is also concerning, which is thankfully not being reflected in rugby.

Final decision - I'm withdrawing from netball on Saturdays and social rosters and now only umpiring every second Wednesday and Thursday (non-social premier leagues). This is not because of the lack of $, as I would do it without it at this level, but because I'm sick of the lack of support and politics.

Rugby wise - I'm devoting more of my time to the cause, because we get better support and friendships, even though I don't get paid. It would be really great to get travel expenses covered, considering some days we do one match here and the next 20k away then drive home, but I certainly wouldn't stop doing it if I didn't get paid.

From the Minister for Home Affairs point of view, I'm sure a little bit of spending money from rugby reffing would ease her complaints about the amount of time that I spend doing rugby things!

 

[menace]

From the Minister for Home Affairs point of view, I'm sure a little bit of spending money from rugby reffing would ease her complaints about the amount of time that I spend doing rugby things!

Welcome to the brethren brother! Buy yourself some earplugs...as it only increases exponentially with each year you hang with unpaid rugby.epper:

 

[The Fat]

Welcome to the brethren brother! Buy yourself some earplugs...as it only increases exponentially with each year you hang with unpaid rugby.epper:

Tell the girls that if you were not reffing rugby matches, you would need to spend 4 or 5 hundred dollars a year on gym membership to stay in top stud condition and that by doing the rugby thing you are actually saving money. Use the old, "I'm only doing it for you darling", line. Let me know how you get on.

 

[menace]

I do the gym thing though as well, just to stay in condition during the offseason. The ol' " I only look this good cause of reffing" isn't going to cut it. But I'll let you know how many bruises I get when I try it! (And I dare not tell her how much I've spent on physio to cure what ails me)

 

[Browner]

Bump.......

From time to time this subject resurfaces, apologies to all those disinterested by this, but I've stumbled across this .........

http://www.rahrahrugby.com/vacancies/london-2-club-seeking-prop-and-fly-half-615

http://rahrahrugby.com/vacancies/england-back-row-player-needed-urgently-593

http://rahrahrugby.com/vacancies/england-back-rower-needed-in-london-601

Q? What level is London 3 ??? !!!!!!!



Clearly it contradicts the 'myth' that properly funded refereeing isnt affordable

 

[Browner]

Oh no, I'm on my soap box now .......

North 1 West advert ...... I've inserted my own addition see if you can spot it !!!???!!!

A Northern England side, currently playing in North West 1 are seeking to recruit front 5 players, with a Prop and a Hooker a priority, quality Locks can also be considered.

The club can sign one non more EU player, other recruits need to be EU passport holders.
The club can offer the following benefits for the right players.

• Return Flights
• Employment, likely to be agricultural, Bar, Gym or construction based
• Possible coaching role in local schools, minimum coaching level 1 qualification needed
• Rented Accomodation
• Gym Membership
  
• Kit & Physio
  
  Match day responsibility for thanking the Volunteer Referee and ensuring he has a pint of shandy FoC. Under no circumstances should the player divulge the combined cost of their recruitment to this official, who is blissfully believing the RFU that there is no money in the game to reward him for his volunteer time supporting this sport.
  
  ANY player actively dispelling this 'myth' will find his accomodation downgraded.
  
  

So, at least x3 'packages' costed out at L6 !

OK, soap box re-packed away in garage ( for now) ....

Waiting for Simon T's rebuttle :Nerv:

 

[4eyesbetter]

Simon T does not buttle. He has a man to do that for him.

 

[Adam]

Bump.......

From time to time this subject resurfaces, apologies to all those disinterested by this, but I've stumbled across this .........

http://www.rahrahrugby.com/vacancies/london-2-club-seeking-prop-and-fly-half-615

http://rahrahrugby.com/vacancies/england-back-row-player-needed-urgently-593

http://rahrahrugby.com/vacancies/england-back-rower-needed-in-london-601

Q? What level is London 3 ??? !!!!!!!



Clearly it contradicts the 'myth' that properly funded refereeing isnt affordable

London 3 is L8 I believe?

 

[menace]

I'm with Browner....unions, clubs and players can afford it if they want to. Referees can enforce it if they want to achieve parity with other codes.

Oz rugby is supposedly broke. ARU is supposedly in financial trouble after years of mismanagement. But if the players want a service, they need to find a way to fund it.

You can enact change. It's not easy, but it can be done.

 

[Browner]

My next match sees me attend a university fixture. Here is a selective summary of the day for Simon or any RFU reader.

C.6 hours of preparation/rush hour sitting time included, referee the match to 'as close to proffessional as I can acheive' , time taken off from my day job to do this.

Vehicle/petrol Expences of c.£12
Arrive & meet groundsman driving a facilities tractor/4x4 that costs 3x my car.
Change in the sports changing facilities that recently cost more to build than a small hotel in Twickenham is valued at (>£8m!)
Critiqued by a coach who's daily rate dwarfs mine.

Irrespective of the No cup of tea before or after !!!! , its a joke (a RFU & ref society con) that a university can get "contracted in services" without paying a proper market rate. Schools also can always find resources for educational/sporting needs IF and when they need to.

If they were advised tomorrow that rugby referees are now £100 a fixture, they'd include it in their budget and pay it, or develop/employ from within ( which I doubt they'd do, for liability reasons)

Quite frankly this status quo to change, Society and RFU attitudes need to modernise.
I can see myself withdrawing my labour to the educational organisations, if I'm not valued more appropriately.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Browner -Tim Miller of London is leading a RFU working group right now into the topic of Referee payments and it will report through RFRU I think.

Can I forward your comments to him ?

 

[Simon Thomas]

Oh no, I'm on my soap box now .......

North 1 West advert ...... I've inserted my own addition see if you can spot it !!!???!!!



So, at least x3 'packages' costed out at L6 !

OK, soap box re-packed away in garage ( for now) ....

Waiting for Simon T's rebuttle :Nerv:

I think you mean rebuttal. Why would I do that ?

I am not surprised by what you say at all. I am aware of the playing finances of three clubs - two at Level 5 and one at Level 7 - and such arrangements are not unusual.

The issue of Referee payments cones around every now and again and right now a RFU working group is looking at the options.

Clubs, Unis and schools already pay a referee match fee around £25-40 depending on which Society it is and I question your comment re Unis especially - I know for a fact that both Portsmouth & Southampton Unis have had cuts to their sports dept budgets, salaries, coaches made redundant, etc in the last few seasons.

I have no objections what-so-ever for higher level referees to be paid - Panel Referees already are. There are some good arguments to drop that down a couple more levels. However be very careful what you wish for, as being paid changes your status from volunteer to paid official - and the whole basis of your relationships and dynamics to players, coaches, Committee men and even spectators changes to a very different set.

And a paid referee's performance measurement is likely change to a work like performance appraisal and you will be expected to deliver against a higher level. That has some major implications for match observers / assessors, the whole development and training / coaching framework, and pressure on a paid referee.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

I regularly ref level 7 where some players are paid £100 a game and I'm the one who gets all the stick no matter how shit the paid men have played.
The other argument I'm losing rapidly with the boss is that I played rugby when I married her.
Yes but you weren't away every week for hours on end. I have no defence

 

[menace]

I have no objections what-so-ever for higher level referees to be paid - Panel Referees already are. There are some good arguments to drop that down a couple more levels. However be very careful what you wish for, as being paid changes your status from volunteer to paid official - and the whole basis of your relationships and dynamics to players, coaches, Committee men and even spectators changes to a very different set.

And a paid referee's performance measurement is likely change to a work like performance appraisal and you will be expected to deliver against a higher level. That has some major implications for match observers / assessors, the whole development and training / coaching framework, and pressure on a paid referee.

For every argument you put up not to pay, has an equally sound and convincing rebuttal. Equally for every argument you put up to be paid, there is an equally good rebuttal too!. It's a vicious circle of argument. I know, as I've just spent the last 18 months debating it with our local union trying to get match payments up and we went through them all (often heated). However we did not coin it as a 'payment' but rather a 'costs reimbursement' that goes above and beyond the meagre travel expenses and is a set amount spread across each game. We don't expect a match payment will affect the spectators too much in our parts, as they all think we get paid now! Also we are using match payments to introduce subscriptions to pay for the services we need to operate as an association (previous $0 subs and funding was from unreliable donations and sponsors, which are much more difficult to attract nowadays). Referees have to pay for services it uses ( ie training facilities, professional trainers, presenters, referee functions, exchanges, equipment etc).

It is a 'user-pays' world, whether you like it or not. And it's time the players paid for the services they use.

Yes...it will have implications on development, coaches and the machinations of the association, but the reality is that you'll find that you're probably doing them already or they need to be implemented for better development (such as applying standards and referee expectations) and all you're doing is formalising them to show the 'payers' what you're doing. But IMO that has to be a good thing. Nothing wrong with transparency. So if you're suggesting that payment is linked to accountability then I rebutt that. I get paid $0 now, that does not mean I have 0 accountability when I referee a game now (no matter the game level).

 

[Browner]

Maybe a referees 'Union' is the way forward?

 

[Browner]

I think you mean rebuttal. Why would I do that ?

I am not surprised by what you say at all. I am aware of the playing finances of three clubs - two at Level 5 and one at Level 7 - and such arrangements are not unusual.

The issue of Referee payments cones around every now and again and right now a RFU working group is looking at the options.

Clubs, Unis and schools already pay a referee match fee around £25-40 depending on which Society it is and I question your comment re Unis especially - I know for a Fact that both Portsmouth & Southampton Unis have had cuts to their sports dept budgets, salaries, coaches made redundant, etc in the last few seasons.

I have no objections what-so-ever for higher level referees to be paid - Panel Referees already are. There are some good arguments to drop that down a couple more levels. However be very careful what you wish for, as being paid changes your status from volunteer to paid official - and the whole basis of your relationships and dynamics to players, coaches, Committee men and even spectators changes to a very different set.

And a paid referee's performance measurement is likely change to a work like performance appraisal and you will be expected to deliver against a higher level. That has some major implications for match observers / assessors, the whole development and training / coaching framework, and pressure on a paid referee.

Yes, and the RFU analysts would have predicted all this "FoC" effort would end one day...the reality is that even at grassroots £1 per player per match ...matched by their club, would pay for most referees /assessors/ coaches etc ..... This sport has moved on Simon, The very elite earned £20k pa in 1995, now its £1m+ the trickle down needs to be ommensurate with the Level operated at.

Perhaps a referee 'union' would be a good idea ? Collective bargaining.

Any referee who is happy to not take his fee, could donate to the host club, his club, the injured referees fund, or the 'supply kit to grassroots referees fund'

Simon, I know its not your fight, but you do often speak up for the 'status quo' , I'm not seeking to offend, and I suspect your own rugby ambitions aren't fuelled by financial reward, I'd be happy to get below minimum wage for this highly complex skill set that facilitates the enjoyment ( and therefore the survival) of rugby clubs.

Try asking this question next weekend in the PMB, " £1 each players, as a thank you to the referee who's given up 5/6 hours of his time today, OR you can play without an independant minded official if you all agree & prefer ??, what, yes player A&E is only 20 mins car drive from here"

Or, Maybe I'm out of touch with referee valuing/rewarding???? RR members??

 

[menace]

The ticket items for me-
1) We probably all agree that whether you get paid or not, you wouldn't referee unless you enjoyed it. You won't start refereeing or stay refereeing if you hate it...even if you're paid well.

2) unless you're reaching the lofty heights of the elite level (less than 1% of us I suspect) then you are not looking to make an 'income' from it

3) most just want our 'costs' covered. (For me it's 'hush money'..... 'Here darling, here's coffee and lunch money while I'm out on Saturday, now hush!"

4) we simply want what the others are getting!

 

[Simon Thomas]

Maybe a referees 'Union' is the way forward?

We have one - it is the RFRU (Rugby Football Referees Union). Your representative is elected at Federation level.

 

[JJ10]

I think Browner and Simon make some pretty good points on both sides of this.

For my own two pence worth, I really enjoy my refereeing and its fairly easy to justify not getting paid at around Level 10. No-one else is at that level (and nor should they!) The same goes for junior rugby at club level and most school games. I usually "charge" less than a tenner for a game, which at a weekend covers a TFL travelcard. It would be easy for us all rocking around at L12-7 to charge more than that if it were agreed by our societies and the RFU, but as ST says I do wonder what impact it will have on the pretty good relationship we get from clubs/coaches/players. Payment implies professionalism, so standards, even at lower levels, would have to go up, as would fitness levels etc. I think some refs (and players and couaches!) would struggle here and actually lose their enjoyment of the game.

I can however see that attitude changing once I've been doing it for longer and start to move up the levels. As Browner says, when schools and Universities start paying their DoRs, coaches and professionalising their set up, and as the clubs start paying their players it becomes slightly harder to justify. We are after all the one who suffers most of the blame when things don't go one team's way, no matter what our performance was actually like.

Having said all that, explaining to mates that I referee for free, take time out of work to do it midweek, and don't always get bought a pint after the game does make for some pretty surprised faces on the other side of the conversation! My only comeback is "maybe one day when I'm good enough...":biggrin: