Grab tackle involving legs

[menace]

A comment from another thread that a legal tackle resulting in an injury is not a reason to card a player reminded me of this incident. It happend on the weekend where the tackled player suffered a compound fracture.

See clip in here:

http://www.sportal.com.au/rugby/news/horrific-broken-ankle-in-shute-shield/1ag4y7s92g6k1fgnkziwxusza

Don't worry you don't see the break.
Do you think think this tackle was legal? (The referee did not apply a sanction for the tackle)

I've recently noticed an increase that chasing tacklers will grasp a player and seem to deliberately entangle their legs and feet to trip up a player or is it just a momentum thing? Any illegality of a trip seems to be masked by the legal grasping? Or am I just trying to see illegal things because of the outcome?

 

[leaguerefaus]

I'd be shocked to see that penalised. Play on.

 

[Browner]

Hi menace,
No, its deliberate.

At the risk of LLP or Leaguerefaus awakening from their cosy slumber, this type of tackling wasn't prevalent in Rugby Union in years previous when grasping lower was the norm, but tackling has gotten higher & become more fashionable caused by the better RL defense coaches/players earning their crust in union.

IMO its a "bring him down with legs, or a jumping into the tackle with leading legs" style that was developed /coached in RL and that type of injury is much more likely to happen as merging continues.

I'd penalise it the first time I saw it practice's, but I don't referee in RL 'counties' where I suspect referees would be under a high expectation to allow it due to localised convention.

Sits down and waits for the inevitable shots :shrug:

 

[menace]

Interestingly the 'grab and trip' tackle is specifically outlawed in RL, and was put in the spotlight in about 2002 due to Allan Alfie Langers style of using his legs/feet to bring down bigger blokes. (My memory is sketchy but I think it was because of Langers 'tackling' technique that bought about a RL law change about grasping a player and tripping them??).

For sure I'll be in for a lambasting for suggesting that tackle on the clip may have been such a 'trippy' tackle. I'm certainly not suggesting the player was trying to cause any harm.

 

[Drift]

Are we looking at this because of the injury?

 

[Dickie E]

Are we looking at this because of the injury?

I suspect so. Wouldn't get a second glance otherwise.

 

[menace]

There's 3....and counting

Actually I raised it because we all know 'tripping' is a foul play law. Why is that?
The fact that this 'trip' resulted in a serious injury possibly highlights why tripping is considered dangerous/foul play. Funny that.:shrug:
I accept injuries will happen in tackles, but some tackling techniques perhaps should be looked at when it increases the likelihood of a serious injury. I'm seeing a hint of the tackler grabbing the arm dropping and then throwing his left leg to bring the BC down. Perhaps I'm seeing things. I think this may be one such technique that may need looking into.

Once upon a time lifting past horizontal tackle was considered 'acceptable'.....then suddenly there came a point that players were getting hurt and necks were potentially/getting broken and what was acceptable is now not.
It was once acceptable that a tackled bumped off the shoulder onto the neck/head....not now? Why is that?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Bringing a tackled player down by "tripping" him is legal in RL, in a manner of speaking

[LAWS]SECTION 11: THE TACKLE AND PLAY-THE-BALL

Notes:

Foul “throws” 1. (a)
A tackler must not make use of any special “holds” or “throws” which are likely to cause injury or use his knees in the tackle. It is permissible for a tackler to bring a player in possession of the ball to the ground by pulling him over the outstretched leg provided he is holding the player with both arms before there is any contact with the leg.[/LAWS]

In RL this is mostly used in a standing tackle. This never used to be an issue in RU so I suspect Browner is right that when he suggests that this technique has migrated to our game via the influx of RL defensive coaches in the last 10-15 years.

 

[menace]

Bringing a tackled player down by "tripping" him is legal in RL, in a manner of speaking

[LAWS]SECTION 11: THE TACKLE AND PLAY-THE-BALL

Notes:

Foul “throws” 1. (a)
A tackler must not make use of any special “holds” or “throws” which are likely to cause injury or use his knees in the tackle. It is permissible for a tackler to bring a player in possession of the ball to the ground by pulling him over the outstretched leg provided he is holding the player with both arms before there is any contact with the leg.[/LAWS]

In RL this is mostly used in a standing tackle. This never used to be an issue in RU so I suspect Browner is right that when he suggests that this technique has migrated to our game via the influx of RL defensive coaches in the last 10-15 years.

Thanks. I stand corrected on that RL law. The specific section that Langer was breaching was '
provided he is holding the player with both arms before there is any contact with the leg.' Langer was using just one arm to trip them over his leg.

At junior RL this applies "2.1) the tACKler’s legs CAnnot be used to trip in A throW.
the use of the legs in a tackle is not permissible. using the legs (even if the defender has a hand/hands on the ball-carrier) to trip or throw constitutes an infringement."

 

[Pegleg]

I'd not expect to see a Union player use his legs to "help" bring a player to ground in a tackle. I would be considerering it a trip / judo throw and therby illegal.

 

[Browner]

Re:

. I'd not expect to see a Union player use his legs to "help" bring a player to ground in a tackle. I would be considerering it a trip / judo throw and therby illegal.

But would referees expect to see it, say if the geographical area being refereed in included many players also coached in the fine art of RL?
or ...if adept code switching players retained such transferable 'skills' after their code hop ?

( perhaps someone who referees Union in a RL heartland could give us their insight) is grabbing high whilst colliding/wrapping/tripping with legs a technique that you come across in your amateur Union fixtures?

 

[crossref]

I've not refereed a tackle like that in an adult game, but have seen some similar things in youth games - like u14/U15 where it's not totally uncommon for a small player to end up hanging off a much larger and stronger one.

In a youth game I'd penalise it and admonish as I think it does amount to a trip, even if the tackler didn't see it that way. I'd only likely YC if it semed that the technique was deliberate/coached (very unlikely IMO)

 

[Pegleg]

Re:

But would referees expect to see it, say if the geographical area being refereed in included many players also coached in the fine art of RL?
or ...if adept code switching players retained such transferable 'skills' after their code hop ?

( perhaps someone who referees Union in a RL heartland could give us their insight) is grabbing high whilst colliding/wrapping/tripping with legs a technique that you come across in your amateur Union fixtures?

Sorry; I meant I would not expect to see it from any player whatever his background or geographically origin (Just as I don't expect to see a stamp on the head). If I did see it, he could expect to have a break from the game of anything from 10 mins to the rest of the match and possibly beyond!

 

[damo]

I think that tackle is very borderline. We don't get a great view of it from that angle - and by all accounts I don't want to see the front on - so you would have to give the tackler the benefit of the doubt. It does look a little bit like the tackler has slid into the ball carrier which in combination with the grab has brought the ball carrier down. If that is what has effected the tackle then for me that is dangerous and illegal. However, as I say you can't really see if that is the case or not, so if that is the angle that you see then it has to be play on.

 

[Taff]

I would say that was illegal.

 

[menace]

Here's a couple more angles of the tackle.
Angle 1

Angle 2

Angle 3 - this is the better angle but also shows the broken leg. It's a bit yuck but no bones show!

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Re:

But would referees expect to see it, say if the geographical area being refereed in included many players also coached in the fine art of RL?
or ...if adept code switching players retained such transferable 'skills' after their code hop ?

( perhaps someone who referees Union in a RL heartland could give us their insight) is grabbing high whilst colliding/wrapping/tripping with legs a technique that you come across in your amateur Union fixtures?

I referee RU in and around Hull, Castleford, Pontefract, Leeds, Wakefield, Bradford, Halifax and Huddersfield and have never come across such a technique at senior level. I have witnessed it a bit in junior matches (not refereed by me) and it was penalised and let go in equal measure.

Allan Langer, Peter Stirling and Gary Freeman (dirty NZ SH who got a fat lip from Steve Hampson much to my delight in the mid-eighties) all seem to employ this trippy/tackle at some time or other - I think it was the forte of the short arse RL scrum half - see also Kevin Dick, Andy Gregory etc. When I have seen it in RL it tends to be as a last ditch effort to get a ballcarrrier to fall over when stood rather than something done on the run.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I referee RU in and around Hull, Castleford, Pontefract, Leeds, Wakefield, Bradford, Halifax and Huddersfield and have never come across such a technique at senior level. I have witnessed it a bit in junior matches (not refereed by me) and it was penalised and let go in equal measure.

Allan Langer, Peter Stirling and Gary Freeman (dirty NZ SH who got a fat lip from Steve Hampson much to my delight in the mid-eighties) all seem to employ this trippy/tackle at some time or other - I think it was the forte of the short arse RL scrum half - see also Kevin Dick, Andy Gregory etc. When I have seen it in RL it tends to be as a last ditch effort to get a ballcarrrier to fall over when stood rather than something done on the run.

Ironically the current uber shortarse of scrum halves, Rob Burrow of Leeds Rhinos, can tackle properly in a manner Browner would approve of not least as RB is too tiny to tackle up top.

 

[TheBFG]

funny enough I had this towards the end of the season in a junior representative match. A player did a judo throw where his leg was very much involved. as he did it the ball carrier offloaded and I played on, but at the next break in play I told the tackler I didn't want to see it again as I considered it dangerous. 2 mins later he does the same thing, this time I blew straight away and gave a PK and gave him the bollocking it deserved! just after that he was subbed, however in the bar after the players father came up to me and asked me what the PK was for, so I told him that I believed it to be dangerous as it was in my view a trip and that he was lucky not to get a YC as I'd already warned him, the father said "you're a fool, he's been doing that all season" and walked off!

 

[OB..]

funny enough I had this towards the end of the season in a junior representative match. A player did a judo throw where his leg was very much involved. as he did it the ball carrier offloaded and I played on, but at the next break in play I told the tackler I didn't want to see it again as I considered it dangerous. 2 mins later he does the same thing, this time I blew straight away and gave a PK and gave him the bollocking it deserved! just after that he was subbed, however in the bar after the players father came up to me and asked me what the PK was for, so I told him that I believed it to be dangerous as it was in my view a trip and that he was lucky not to get a YC as I'd already warned him, the father said "you're a fool, he's been doing that all season" and walked off!

IMHO there is no legitimate rugby play which involves using feet or legs on an opponent. It is therefore illegal.