Anthony Watson RC

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winchesterref


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Agreed. Red 14 was clearly looking to block.

He was also 3rd man in after GG had said he would penalise the next player who did this.

Equitable outcome YC for both? Benefit of the doubt to AW as TMO felt he landed on his shoulder.
 
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Camquin

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Under the current regulations I think it had to be Red, but I thought it should have been a Yellow for Ashton, especially as he had spoken to Ashton and given the general warning.

So I would have given Red followed by a Yellow and restarted with penalty to Bath.

Actually I thought the later YC for lifting in the tackle was more worthy of a Red as it was a deliberate lift. Which to my mind illustrates the regulations are wrong. Not that I can come up with better.

However, I thought Saracens were lucky to keep their front row on, I thought there could have easily been a YC for pulling down - but ref managed it with a warning.

Having said that, Sarries played the better rugby, so deserved the win.
 
Treadmore

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A red each: Ashton for the unwarranted afters (that sort of stuff needs removing from the game) and Watson's seems in-line with the guidance - no matter how harsh it seems, he had no chance of competing for that ball.
 
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winchesterref


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Treadmore said:
A red each: Ashton for the unwarranted afters (that sort of stuff needs removing from the game) and Watson's seems in-line with the guidance - no matter how harsh it seems, he had no chance of competing for that ball.
Click to expand...

But he did have a chance and indeed was well timed, until Ashton blocked him
 
Treadmore

Treadmore

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winchesterref said:
But he did have a chance and indeed was well timed, until Ashton blocked him
Click to expand...

And after the block he could & should have adjusted to avoid because he no longer had a realistic chance to compete for the ball
 
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RobLev

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Wrong post.
 
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RobLev

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Treadmore said:
And after the block he could & should have adjusted to avoid because he no longer had a realistic chance to compete for the ball
Click to expand...

How? He was still stumbling when he made contact with Goode.
 
Ian_Cook

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Camquin said:
Under the current regulations I think it had to be Red, but I thought it should have been a Yellow for Ashton, especially as he had spoken to Ashton and given the general warning.
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GG got this wrong IMO.

Ashton clearly did move into a position to block Watson and he was as much to blame for what happened as Watson. If Ashton doesn't block, Watson has a chance to adjust. This was as good as a shove IMO; would you still RC Watson if Ashton had shoved Watson into Goode's legs?

Camquin said:
Actually I thought the later YC for lifting in the tackle was more worthy of a Red as it was a deliberate lift. Which to my mind illustrates the regulations are wrong. Not that I can come up with better.
Click to expand...

Really? If you are talking about Chris Cooke on Michael Rhodes, that was just a dump tackle; Rhodes landed on his arse/back, not his upper back/shoulders as the Law requires.

[LAWS]10.4 (j) Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

checkbox_checked.png
...Lifting a player from the ground...

checkbox_checked.png
...and dropping or driving that player into the ground...

checkbox_checked.png
...whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground...

checkbox_crossed.png
...such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground

CCMR.png



PK only, if that

IMO, "beyond horizontal" should not include the position of the legs. Its is perfectly possible (and in fact more likely) for a player's legs to be pointing upward while their upper body is still higher than their lower body.

ARU-GMGTT1.jpg


"Shoulders below hips" should be the criteria for beyond horizontal!
 
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dickell

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Ian_Cook said:
GG got this wrong IMO.

Ashton clearly did move into a position to block Watson and he was as much to blame for what happened as Watson. If Ashton doesn't block, Watson has a chance to adjust. This was as good as a shove IMO; would you still RC Watson if Ashton had shoved Watson into Goode's legs?



Really? If you are talking about Chris Cooke on Michael Rhodes, that was just a dump tackle; Rhodes landed on his arse/back, not his upper back/shoulders as the Law requires.

[LAWS]10.4 (j) Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

checkbox_checked.png
...Lifting a player from the ground...

checkbox_checked.png
...and dropping or driving that player into the ground...

checkbox_checked.png
...whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground...

checkbox_crossed.png
...such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground

CCMR.png



PK only, if that

IMO, "beyond horizontal" should not include the position of the legs. Its is perfectly possible (and in fact more likely) for a player's legs to be pointing upward while their upper body is still higher than their lower body.

ARU-GMGTT1.jpg


"Shoulders below hips" should be the criteria for beyond horizontal!
Click to expand...

Very disappointed with TMO Hughes, who is normally good, but who wrongly IMO said that Ashton had not changed his line when clearly he blocked Watson and caused the collision as it happened. Not at all surprised with GG whom I have never rated.
 
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The Fat said:
Definitely a RC for Watson under the current guidelines.
If GG had previously warned captains about "afters", then YC for Ashton.
Restart with PK to Sarries.
Click to expand...


Fat.

Would you still RC Watson if Ashton had shoved him into Goode's legs?
 
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The Fat


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Dickie E said:
Can you post the guidelines please? I'm not sure I have seen them.
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From Law Application Guidelines
http://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=9&guideline=8

Enforcement of Current Law
May 2015

Challenging players in the air - Law 10.4(i)
Play on – Fair challenge with both players in a realistic position to catch the ball. Even if the player(s) land(s) dangerously, play on
Penalty only – Fair challenge with wrong timing - No pulling down
Yellow card – Not a fair challenge, there is no contest and the player is pulled down landing on his back or side
Red card – Not a fair challenge, there is no contest and the player lands on his head, neck or shoulder
 
Dickie E

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The Fat said:
From Law Application Guidelines
http://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=9&guideline=8

Enforcement of Current Law
May 2015

Challenging players in the air - Law 10.4(i)
Play on – Fair challenge with both players in a realistic position to catch the ball. Even if the player(s) land(s) dangerously, play on
Penalty only – Fair challenge with wrong timing - No pulling down
Yellow card – Not a fair challenge, there is no contest and the player is pulled down landing on his back or side
Red card – Not a fair challenge, there is no contest and the player lands on his head, neck or shoulder
Click to expand...

I think it was Ashton who stopped it being a fair challenge
 
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Pegleg

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Ashon was guilty of an offence (blocking).

However, once there could be no fair challenge Watson should have pulled out. He could have and but, he did not. So thered card is fair. Ashton also should have had a card (yellow) and the PK should have been for the RC offence.
 
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winchesterref


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There is less than a second between him colliding with Ashton and then Goode, how is AW meant to pull out of it?

If he's walking, it's an easy stop. At pace he's got no chance. There has to be some empathy.
 
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RobLev

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winchesterref said:
There is less than a second between him colliding with Ashton and then Goode, how is AW meant to pull out of it?

If he's walking, it's an easy stop. At pace he's got no chance. There has to be some empathy.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
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Pegleg

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Empathy yes. Excuses no.
 
Chris_j

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I don't think Watson needs any excuse. He was deliberately impeded when running at pace and had no chance of avoiding Goode. The only culpable party here is Ashton. He then compounded it by shoving Watson after the collision with Goode. Should have been yellow Ashton for the deliberate obstruction followed by a second for the afters after already being warned.

I don't see any reason to sanction Watson.

It was Ashton's first run out since the ten weeks rest for gouging. Will he ever learn?
 
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