It’s clear to the extent that players can come on to the pitch when the referee says they can. The question is, for the sake of consistency and clarity for all, when exactly can the referee say they can? The law saying that players can only come onto the pitch with permission of the referee has been around for a long time. When a referee gives permission varies from one referee to the next and this is the crux of the issue/argument.
[Law] Clarification 1 "021
- Thread starter Ciaran Trainor
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It’s not really a matter of trust. As a club coach I want you to say the same as the referee we had last week and the referee we will have next week. We can’t have you every week!
what is 'properly' ?
I posed a load of scenarios in #17, if two refs disagree about the answers, who is to say which one is doing it properly?
It’s not really a matter of trust. As a club coach I want you to say the same as the referee we had last week and the referee we will have next week. We can’t have you every week!
It occurs to me that this is the purpose behind clarifications surely? However this one is the exception it seems.
About three years ago I observed the situation when one team was awarded a penalty. The team asked if their YC could come back on. The ref said it depended on what they were going to do. Why asked the team. The ref asked why they wanted to know. The YC returner was the club captain/player/coach as well as main kicker. The team wanted him to decide what he wanted to do. (One score in it - three to draw.) It became apparent that the ref would allow him on to take a kick at goal but not a kick for touch. With no reasoning other than he never did allow it before lineouts. So he came on to kick for goal and the game was drawn. The opposition, especially the coaches, went apoplectic. Game drawn and the opposition missed promotion. The previous week their kicker hadn’t been allowed on. (Why differentiate between kicks? Do members of the forum do this?)
That is merely one of hundreds of inconsistencies that I have records of and why I feel quite strongly about it. On such refereeing decisions people can lose their jobs/livelihoods. It should not depend on the ‘because I say so decision of the referee’. At the very grassroots level it may not be important. If a player/coach makes a decision that costs them their job then that’s unfortunate for them. If you are the referee that makes an unnecessary decision that costs someone their job how would you feel? When to allow a player on to the pitch is a decision that does not need need to be a random decision base on personal interpretation like so many of the other laws. Clear guidance would be an aid to ‘referee protection’.
That is merely one of hundreds of inconsistencies that I have records of and why I feel quite strongly about it. On such refereeing decisions people can lose their jobs/livelihoods. It should not depend on the ‘because I say so decision of the referee’. At the very grassroots level it may not be important. If a player/coach makes a decision that costs them their job then that’s unfortunate for them. If you are the referee that makes an unnecessary decision that costs someone their job how would you feel? When to allow a player on to the pitch is a decision that does not need need to be a random decision base on personal interpretation like so many of the other laws. Clear guidance would be an aid to ‘referee protection’.
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In your example:
1. Did the ref make the ball dead? (Clarification says the ref needed to do so to allow the return of the player.)
2. Was there another incident like an injury that caused the ref to make the ball dead? (Clarification makes clear such incidents can allow players to come onto the pitch with refs permission.)
If neither 1 or 2 applied in your example then the ref concerned now has a clarification to help them in future.
1. Did the ref make the ball dead? (Clarification says the ref needed to do so to allow the return of the player.)
2. Was there another incident like an injury that caused the ref to make the ball dead? (Clarification makes clear such incidents can allow players to come onto the pitch with refs permission.)
If neither 1 or 2 applied in your example then the ref concerned now has a clarification to help them in future.
Balones is right.
In Balones scenario I would let the YC player return without hesitation, whatever he wants to do, and at the same time therefore let the oppo do any subs or YC returns they need.
Other refs will allow nothing at all.
According to the clarification all approaches are now correct as it's up to the ref
Clarifications are supposed to remove inconsistencies, not enshrine them
In Balones scenario I would let the YC player return without hesitation, whatever he wants to do, and at the same time therefore let the oppo do any subs or YC returns they need.
Other refs will allow nothing at all.
According to the clarification all approaches are now correct as it's up to the ref
Clarifications are supposed to remove inconsistencies, not enshrine them
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Somewhatsarcastically, if you’re worrying THAT much about the timing of your YC returns week after week, perhaps you should be worrying less about the referee and more about your shitty discipline?It’s not really a matter of trust. As a club coach I want you to say the same as the referee we had last week and the referee we will have next week. We can’t have you every week!
Perhaps I should have said start of the season, mid-season and end of season? Three YCs in a season aren’t bad.
As a coach I’d be happy with that.
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In RFU land, league games have separate regulations for rolling substitutions.
Regulation 13, Appendix 2.
The main ones to note in relation to this conversation are highlighted in the text below, basically a player interchanged can't take a kick at goal as his first action and it's at the referee's discretion to allow an interchange. This seems much clearer than the clarification:
[LAWS]24. Not more than two Player Interchanges per team may occur at any one time and may only occur during a stoppage in play and in all cases with the permission of the Referee.
25. A Player must enter the field of play on the halfway line.
26. A Player who is a replacement shall not be entitled to take a kick at goal until a passage of play has taken place since that Player took to the field of play.
27. A Player who is previously injured in the match may return to play as a Player Interchange provided the Player is fit to continue playing in the match save that a Player who suffers two injuries in a match which has necessitated that Player being replaced on each occasion is not permitted to act as a replacement following the second injury.
28. In addition to the powers set out in the Laws of the Game, Referees are entitled in their sole opinion to prohibit or postpone a Player Interchange if they believe either that the Player Interchange would prevent the opposition from restarting the game quickly or where the replacement Player is not fit to continue playing in the match.
29. Under dispensation provided to Unions by World Rugby, where these rolling substitutions Regulations conflict with the Laws of the Game these Regulations shall take precedence.[/LAWS]
Regulation 13, Appendix 2.
The main ones to note in relation to this conversation are highlighted in the text below, basically a player interchanged can't take a kick at goal as his first action and it's at the referee's discretion to allow an interchange. This seems much clearer than the clarification:
[LAWS]24. Not more than two Player Interchanges per team may occur at any one time and may only occur during a stoppage in play and in all cases with the permission of the Referee.
25. A Player must enter the field of play on the halfway line.
26. A Player who is a replacement shall not be entitled to take a kick at goal until a passage of play has taken place since that Player took to the field of play.
27. A Player who is previously injured in the match may return to play as a Player Interchange provided the Player is fit to continue playing in the match save that a Player who suffers two injuries in a match which has necessitated that Player being replaced on each occasion is not permitted to act as a replacement following the second injury.
28. In addition to the powers set out in the Laws of the Game, Referees are entitled in their sole opinion to prohibit or postpone a Player Interchange if they believe either that the Player Interchange would prevent the opposition from restarting the game quickly or where the replacement Player is not fit to continue playing in the match.
29. Under dispensation provided to Unions by World Rugby, where these rolling substitutions Regulations conflict with the Laws of the Game these Regulations shall take precedence.[/LAWS]
[LAWS]26. A Player who is a replacement shall not be entitled to take a kick at goal until a passage of play has taken place since that Player took to the field of play.[/LAWS]
i think we have had some clarifications on this - if the 10 is taken out by an act of foul play (or Blood, or HIA) then his replacement IS allowed to come on and take the PK at goal.
i think we have had some clarifications on this - if the 10 is taken out by an act of foul play (or Blood, or HIA) then his replacement IS allowed to come on and take the PK at goal.
This is the sort of specific clarification I can support. It’s a pity it only covers a very narrow aspect of returners/replacements/subs.
I would like it to make it clear that returners (YCs) can take a kick at goal because they are not replacements. It outlines that unless there is a QP there is no reason why a ref cannot or shouldn’t allow a replacement. (With the proviso given.) That’s the nub of the matter. Some refs will and some refs won’t. And what about YCs instead of replacements?
I would like it to make it clear that returners (YCs) can take a kick at goal because they are not replacements. It outlines that unless there is a QP there is no reason why a ref cannot or shouldn’t allow a replacement. (With the proviso given.) That’s the nub of the matter. Some refs will and some refs won’t. And what about YCs instead of replacements?
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Not come across or received that myself. Would be happy to have further information.
lost in mist of time -- but it would make sense surely?
If 10 is taken out by an act of foul play, surely we would allow the replacement to take the PK ??
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regulation 13 Appendix 2. No mention of foul play although it does ring a bell.
https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/aa/aa6c359d-2ae0-42f8-873f-8e8c66488904/RFUHandbook2018-19_English.pdf
Scroll down to page 169
https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/aa/aa6c359d-2ae0-42f8-873f-8e8c66488904/RFUHandbook2018-19_English.pdf
Scroll down to page 169
Genuine question just to gauge opinion.
Referees on this forum, what would you do in the following circumstances? (Or have done in the past?)
Coaches, when would you expect your player to be able to return/replaced?
PRs/Observers/assessors. Make any comments you like.
Ideally please indicate which viewpoint you are responding from.
Thanks.
Team Red have been awarded a penalty. A YC card has been off the field for 12 minute. (Due to continuation of play.) Assuming no quick penalty has been taken, team Red would like to bring on their YC. They want to:-
A.) Take a kick for touch.
B.) Take a shot at goal.
C.) Opt for a scrum.
D.) Tap and run with the ball.
Referees on this forum, what would you do in the following circumstances? (Or have done in the past?)
Coaches, when would you expect your player to be able to return/replaced?
PRs/Observers/assessors. Make any comments you like.
Ideally please indicate which viewpoint you are responding from.
Thanks.
Team Red have been awarded a penalty. A YC card has been off the field for 12 minute. (Due to continuation of play.) Assuming no quick penalty has been taken, team Red would like to bring on their YC. They want to:-
A.) Take a kick for touch.
B.) Take a shot at goal.
C.) Opt for a scrum.
D.) Tap and run with the ball.
I would allow YC back on for all of those (and because I have stopped the game for that, I'd let both teams make subs as well if they wanted)
(D) = "Don't be scared, Jonny" - any time when you restart with a PK after time was off, you need to restart fairly so that both teams realise the clock is coming back on and are ready. No gotchas, no surprise 'time-on' -- but given that - yes, they can tap.
(Note - I wouldn't actually know what they were going to do, unless they volunteered it, as I wouldn't ask)
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