U’15s lineout …. In the spirit of the game or not ? ….. how to defend it ??

RUGBYBOOT


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So, here’s a Sunday morning puzzler I’m having that I need help with. Despite trawling the web I still can’t find any real help with this one so here goes….

The U’15’s lineout.

Before I go on, I know lifting is NOT mandatory at this age but I also know that progression is vital, so for me as a coach, I coach lifting in all of our line outs. For me lifting is such an important aspect, so why would you not coach it whilst it’s an uncontested lift in the air. It helps young players to build confidence, understand how line outs can be a real attacking option and also lifting helps defensive progression and understanding of tactics, laws, safety etc.

So, over recent weeks we have come across teams who chose not to lift their jumpers and so when this happens I coach our players to do one of three things in addition to a hard solid defensive drive.

1. ‘Sack the ‘jumper’ 1-1 as soon as he receives the ball, before any maul is formed. I do not coach them to ‘judo throw’ - but I do coach them to spin the jumper round to our side and ruck hard over him.

2. Do not advance. So this way as soon as the attacking side move forward, providing they have moved the ball to the back of their ‘pre maul set-up’ and they engage with our pack they are offside. ( I accept we cannot move out of the lineout)

3….. and the one that referees and opposition dislike the most…… I send our hooker round to the back of their ‘pre maul’ and tackle the ball carrier. This produces the screams of ‘offside from touchline and sometimes the referee at this level’.

I’d really like some advice on this please, especially some confirmation on EXACTLY when I can send that hooker round the back, EXACTLY when the line out is over in this scenario and therefore the hooker can come round as in scenario 3.

If no maul is formed ( because my team do not join it ) and the attacking pass the ball to the back of their ‘pre maul’ is the line out OVER as its not a maul that they form and therefore all the feet of the players involved do not have to cross the middle of the line out ?

Thanks in anticipation ..,, must confess to be struggling a bit with this one ….

#refhelpplease
 

crossref


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In England ? Ther laws will be different in other countries

1

2 I hate that tactic, at u15s I think you should play positive rugby, not develop strategies for trapping the oppo into an offense

3 law 18.37 lays it out. Sounds like the lineout is not over and your hooker is offside?
 
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RUGBYBOOT


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In England ? Ther laws will be different in other countries

1
2 I hate that tactic, at u15s I think you should play positive rugby, not develop strategies for trapping the oppo into an offense
3 law 18.37 lays it out. Sounds like the lineout is not over and your hooker is offside?
Morning, yes UK.

I don’t LIKE the tactic, but as I said, if teams are going to use the ‘ground based’ line out as an attacking option then I feel it’s important that players have all options in their armoury.
 

crossref


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UK is actually England, Wales, Scotland and N Ireland ! Age grade laws are different in all four 🙂
 

Mipper


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I would suggest that IF the ball has been moved to the back of the the “pre maul” then the lineout is over as the ball has left the lineout. Therefore the ball carrier is liable to be tackled by your hooker.

I guess that the question is around the timing of your hookers excursion.
 

crossref


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I would suggest that IF the ball has been moved to the back of the the “pre maul” then the lineout is over as the ball has left the lineout. Therefore the ball carrier is liable to be tackled by your hooker.

I guess that the question is around the timing of your hookers excursion.
I don't agree
  1. The lineout ends when:
    1. The ball or a player in possession of the ball:
      1. leaves the lineout; or
      2. enters the area between the touchline and the five-metre line; or
      3. goes beyond the 15-metre line.
    2. A ruck or maul forms and all of the feet of all of the players in the ruck or maul move beyond the mark of touch.
    3. The ball becomes unplayable

So need one of the above to happen, I don't think the ball has left the lineout if it is being held by a player in the lineout

And, the tactic of not engaging is a negative one, we don't want to reward the team using it (😉) by then making a tight call in favour of their hooker.
 
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didds

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In England ? Ther laws will be different in other countries

1

2 I hate that tactic, at u15s I think you should play positive rugby, not develop strategies for trapping the oppo into an offense

I dont see it as trapping the oppo into an offense. There is no legal requirement to engage the opposition. And THEY need to read the oppo also.
Its not a hill I'll bother to die on but choosing to not engage the catcher as they land is perfectly legal, end of.

WRT

#1 - valid
#3 - AIUI if the "maul" [for want of a better word] doesn't move, the lineout is not yet over and the loT is still the o/side line so sending the hooker round the back is o/side. Im happy to be wrong with this one :)
 
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Mipper


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I don't agree
  1. The lineout ends when:
    1. The ball or a player in possession of the ball:
      1. leaves the lineout; or
      2. enters the area between the touchline and the five-metre line; or
      3. goes beyond the 15-metre line.
    2. A ruck or maul forms and all of the feet of all of the players in the ruck or maul move beyond the mark of touch.
    3. The ball becomes unplayable

So need one of the above to happen, I don't think the ball has left the lineout if it is being held by a player in the lineout

And, the tactic of not engaging is a negative one, we don't want to reward the team using it (😉) by then making a tight call in favour of their hooker.
Well that’s fair enough.

My view, considering the OP stated that the ball had been passed to the back of the ‘pre maul’ is that the ball has left the lineout.

The situation is that this is NOT a maul, therefore if the ball is passed back to someone, they are not part of the lineout (as they would be if it was actually a maul).
 

chbg


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So, here’s a Sunday morning puzzler I’m having that I need help with. Despite trawling the web I still can’t find any real help with this one so here goes….

The U’15’s lineout.

So, over recent weeks we have come across teams who chose not to lift their jumpers and so when this happens I coach our players to do one of three things in addition to a hard solid defensive drive.

1. ‘Sack the ‘jumper’ 1-1 as soon as he receives the ball, before any maul is formed. I do not coach them to ‘judo throw’ - but I do coach them to spin the jumper round to our side and ruck hard over him.

2. Do not advance. So this way as soon as the attacking side move forward, providing they have moved the ball to the back of their ‘pre maul set-up’ and they engage with our pack they are offside. ( I accept we cannot move out of the lineout)

3….. and the one that referees and opposition dislike the most…… I send our hooker round to the back of their ‘pre maul’ and tackle the ball carrier. This produces the screams of ‘offside from touchline and sometimes the referee at this level’.

I’d really like some advice on this please, especially some confirmation on EXACTLY when I can send that hooker round the back, EXACTLY when the line out is over in this scenario and therefore the hooker can come round as in scenario 3.

If no maul is formed ( because my team do not join it ) and the attacking pass the ball to the back of their ‘pre maul’ is the line out OVER as its not a maul that they form and therefore all the feet of the players involved do not have to cross the middle of the line out ?

Thanks in anticipation ..,, must confess to be struggling a bit with this one ….

#refhelpplease
Under RFU Regulation 15 Appendix 9, Para 6(a): "The lineout will be uncontested at U15." So if the throwing-in team have not moved to the next phase of play then there should be no contesting. The lineout is over when: the ball is moved off the line of touch (generally passed or tapped backwards); or when the team in possession offer to form a maul. It could also be over if they take the ball forward off the line of touch (but I haven't seen it), or knock-on!

It appears to me that you are coaching your players to contest the line-out. Not good for me at this age group.

This season, as a Society referee, I have refereed 4x U15 (school Vase & club) and 3x U14 matches. All of the teams have agreed with my interpretation.
 

Jz558


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I must admit that I dont recognise that interpretation of uncontested. When I ref that age group now, or when i coached that age group the generally accepted understanding was that the catch was uncontested however once the player was returned to the ground, they could be engaged. Never had anyone say different to be honest but interesting to hear of different interpretations.
 

Stu10


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@chbg @Jz558 This is clearly described in the RFU guidance document "Lineout Age Grade Progression"

When can the non- throwing team contest possession?

The contest for possession can start once the player who catches the ball has safely returned to the ground. The non-throwing team cannot contest possession whilst the ball is in the air.
 

Stu10


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Sending the hooker around the back is an interesting one and it feels wrong. Working through the laws...

a) The lineout is over, there is no maul, it is open play, therefore the hooker can tackle the ball carrier from any direction.
b) The lineout is not over, therefore the offside line is a line through the ball (Law 18.32), therefore the hooker can advance up the side of the non-maul, however, can he make a tackle on the player at the back without stepping beyond the ball... probably not.

Personally, I would say the lineout is not over because you have a group of players formed to maul at the mark of touch and the ball has been kept within those players. From a game management perspective, I would be quick to blow the whistle and call a scrum for accidental offside against the team in possession before things got messy, and tell the hooker not to do this again so that I can more effectively manage it (i.e. tell the team in possession to use it or lose it (accidental offside)).

Edit - I said I would be quick to blow for accidental offside to avoid a mess... however, if the hooker has gone past the ball before making a tackle, he is getting pinged for offside first.
 
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Stu10


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I dont see it as trapping the oppo into an offense. There is no legal requirement to engage the opposition. And THEY need to read the oppo also.
Its not a hill I'll bother to die on but choosing to not engage the catcher as they land is perfectly legal, end of.

WRT

#1 - valid
#3 - AIUI if the "maul" [for want of a better word] doesn't move, the lineout is not yet over and the loT is still the o/side line so sending the hooker round the back is o/side. Im happy to be wrong with this one :)

Law 18.32
Until the ball is thrown in, and has touched the player or the ground, the offside line for lineout players is the mark of touch. After that, their offside line is a line through the ball.
 

Phil E


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3. The hooker has crossed the line of touch before the ball has left the lineout, so offside.
The ball is still with the players who are part of the lineout and has not been passed away, so the ball has not left the lineout and therefore the lineout is not over.
 

didds

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I must admit that I dont recognise that interpretation of uncontested. When I ref that age group now, or when i coached that age group the generally accepted understanding was that the catch was uncontested however once the player was returned to the ground, they could be engaged. Never had anyone say different to be honest but interesting to hear of different interpretations.
Id agree entirely. On the ground = contestable. Otherwise as an extreme example you could have the throwing team catch, then set up a full driving eight (ball at the front initially) before the defenders are allowed to similarly bind on and set up. Now you have a full eight force going forwards when they choose to, and the defenders aren't able to contest/defend that until that moment. Untenable and in fact dangerous.

[caveat : the defenders could set up without binding but that is easily countered by rotating/stepping the attacking maul - same issue.]
 

Stu10


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Id agree entirely. On the ground = contestable. Otherwise as an extreme example you could have the throwing team catch, then set up a full driving eight (ball at the front initially) before the defenders are allowed to similarly bind on and set up. Now you have a full eight force going forwards when they choose to, and the defenders aren't able to contest/defend that until that moment. Untenable and in fact dangerous.

[caveat : the defenders could set up without binding but that is easily countered by rotating/stepping the attacking maul - same issue.]

Watch out for that flying wedge!!!
 

didds

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Watch out for that flying wedge!!!
yes - but... IF its called!

And IF it would be. then in essence the inability to not contest a catcher on landing sets up a Mexican stand off. the catching team can't bind and drive ... -> flying wedge.

So now the ball ALWAYS has to be passed away... so that doesn't help develop mauling (and/or defending same)
we can pontificate tyhat that may not be such a bad thing, but Im not conVinced removing otherwise standard tactical accepted practices is a good idea.

Others' MMV!
 
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Mipper


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Sending the hooker around the back is an interesting one and it feels wrong. Working through the laws...

a) The lineout is over, there is no maul, it is open play, therefore the hooker can tackle the ball carrier from any direction.
b) The lineout is not over, therefore the offside line is a line through the ball (Law 18.32), therefore the hooker can advance up the side of the non-maul, however, can he make a tackle on the player at the back without stepping beyond the ball... probably not.

Personally, I would say the lineout is not over because you have a group of players formed to maul at the mark of touch and the ball has been kept within those players. From a game management perspective, I would be quick to blow the whistle and call a scrum for accidental offside against the team in possession before things got messy, and tell the hooker not to do this again so that I can more effectively manage it (i.e. tell the team in possession to use it or lose it (accidental offside)).

Edit - I said I would be quick to blow for accidental offside to avoid a mess... however, if the hooker has gone past the ball before making a tackle, he is getting pinged for offside first.
So I am still not certain that this is right. I am very happy to be proved wrong however, but first follow my logic.

Firstly, there is no maul.
Secondly, there is no lineout because the ball has been passed from the catcher to another player.

Therefore the hooker is not offside as long as, obviously, he waits until the ball is moved and therefore the lineout is over.

I have to say that I am not a fan of this tactic, and especially not at U15, but I can’t get past the two elements of no maul, lineout over.

what am I failing to understand here?
 
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