no penalty try in Italy-Wales match

danpat

New member
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
3
Post Likes
1
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Hi guys,

I have a big doubt on a rule.
In Italy wales there was a penalty try not accorded tu Italy when Brex is tackled over the try line. the n10 red after a clear tackle is coming from the opposite side and tackle blue player, refs and tmo said that there was no ruck formed.

But afaik law 14.9 state that
9. Any player who gains possession of the ball : . c. May be tackled, provided the tackler does so from the direction of their own goal line.

am i missing something here?
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,033
Post Likes
1,775
havent seen the game. do you have a game time I can check for ?
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,033
Post Likes
1,775
OK. Think I found it. 25th minute./
The ball is offloaded in the tackle > 1m form the tackle (think that 1m is pertinent ?).
fair tackle in open play. Knocked on .
 

danpat

New member
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
3
Post Likes
1
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
so if I understand correctly if there is an offload in the tackle the 14.9 law is not applicable, right?
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,033
Post Likes
1,775
a ref will be along shortly, but if the offload is > 1m from the tackle, correct.

But im a toothless old prop with a broken nose s0 who knows!? !
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,106
Post Likes
2,131
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
I haven't seen the clip but remember that for 14.9 to apply there must first have been a tackle. So 14.1, 2 and 3 must happen first for 14.9 to be relevant.
 

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,556
Post Likes
423
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Hi guys,

I have a big doubt on a rule.
In Italy wales there was a penalty try not accorded tu Italy when Brex is tackled over the try line. the n10 red after a clear tackle is coming from the opposite side and tackle blue player, refs and tmo said that there was no ruck formed.

But afaik law 14.9 state that
9. Any player who gains possession of the ball : . c. May be tackled, provided the tackler does so from the direction of their own goal line.

am i missing something here?
I haven't seen it.

You say " tackled over the try line"...do you mean this phase of play occurred in the ingoal area?
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,106
Post Likes
2,131
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
I've now watched it. There was a legal & completed tackle a metre from the goal line so law 14 now in play. There was no 'offload'.

While Blue support player was attempting to pick up the ball, Red #10 came from the direction of Blue goal line and tackled the Blue player.

I agree that this is in contravention of 14.9 and should have been a PT & YC.

TMO blathered on about no ruck being formed. FFS :rolleyes:
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,033
Post Likes
1,775
I haven't seen it.

You say " tackled over the try line"...do you mean this phase of play occurred in the ingoal area?
It was in field. very very close to the line. the tackled player offloaded/popped to a supporter. The supporter was tackled infield, from "behind" as he tried to score, but spilled the ball as a result.

Here is is - 25 minutes on the game clock if the URL doesnt work properly

 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,033
Post Likes
1,775
I've now watched it. There was a legal & completed tackle a metre from the goal line so law 14 now in play. There was no 'offload'.

While Blue support player was attempting to pick up the ball:rolleyes:
I disagree Dickie wrt the offload.
There was a tackle on 5.
the ball was clearly handed/passed from blue 5 to blue 13.
Blue13 is tackled/hauled back from behind by red 10.
 
Last edited:

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,033
Post Likes
1,775
but inded 14.9
  1. Any player who gains possession of the ball
    May be tackled, provided the tackler does so from the direction of their own goal line.
    Sanction: Penalty.
    So that does indeed look like a PK. and in this context a PT.
    What Im unclear on here is taking possession... if 5 had flung the ball 5m to blue 13 is 14.9 still in play ? ISTR that isnt , otyherwise a tackle in circu,mstances such as these would make the entire red team offside and aside form being jolly fast to get back, turn and front up, now unable to prevent any score form the player taking possession etc. from "any distance" out

    just clarifying this all now.
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,033
Post Likes
1,775
Was the tackle over? 14.11
Blue 5 hands/passes the ball to blue 13. Blue 5 remains being taken to ground as red 10 hauls/tackled blue 13 from behind. All the post tackle action/carry/tackle was very close to the tackle itself.

  1. The tackle ends when:
    1. A ruck is formed.
    2. A player on their feet from either team gains possession of the ball and moves away or passes or kicks the ball.
    3. The ball leaves the tackle area.
    4. The ball is unplayable. If there is doubt about which player did not conform to law, the referee orders a scrum. The throw is taken by the team moving forward prior to the stoppage or, if no team was moving forward, by the attacking team.



1. no ruck
2. no subsuquent pass after possession. takes at most one step begore being tackled
3. the ball probably doesnt more than 2m from the tackle, maybe actually 1m max
4. Ball is not unplayable.
So it seems to me (a non-ref) that the yackle wasnt over,


didds
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,106
Post Likes
2,131
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
I disagree Dickie wrt the offload.
There was a tackle on 5.
the ball was clearly handed/passed from blue 5 to blue 13.
Blue13 is tackled/hauled back from behind by red 10.
Ok. Let's start with some clarity on terms. What is an 'offload'?
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,033
Post Likes
1,775
ok. moving the ball form a tackled player to another player in the process of being tackled. Appreciating it isn't an official/laws term :)
basically i suppose for want of a much better description, where the tackled player gets the ball to a team mate without a ruck post tackle, or the ball being released on the ground to be picked up.
You'll note I tried to be clearer in the quoted text and avoid using "offload", and instead described what I see. The ball is not presented on the ground for 13 to pick up. But 13 somehow gets the ball before that happens inc close proximity to 5.

that's what i mean anyway :)
 

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,410
Post Likes
461
Blue 5 hands/passes the ball to blue 13. Blue 5 remains being taken to ground as red 10 hauls/tackled blue 13 from behind. All the post tackle action/carry/tackle was very close to the tackle itself.

  1. The tackle ends when:
    1. A ruck is formed.
    2. A player on their feet from either team gains possession of the ball and moves away or passes or kicks the ball.
    3. The ball leaves the tackle area.
    4. The ball is unplayable. If there is doubt about which player did not conform to law, the referee orders a scrum. The throw is taken by the team moving forward prior to the stoppage or, if no team was moving forward, by the attacking team.



1. no ruck
2. no subsuquent pass after possession. takes at most one step begore being tackled
3. the ball probably doesnt more than 2m from the tackle, maybe actually 1m max
4. Ball is not unplayable.
So it seems to me (a non-ref) that the yackle wasnt over,


didds
I can’t really disagree with you except to say that this is yet another example of a lack of clarity and some conflicting statements in the laws. I believe he was in possession and was moving. Whether he was far enough away is perhaps subjective; or impossible to say. Perhaps his right shoulder was just outside a metre away?:) Where would we actually measure from?
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,033
Post Likes
1,775
For clarity now - I do believe its s PK/PT under 14.9
Im now just educating myself as to part 3 of 14.11 what constitutes ball leaving the tackle area . ISTR "1m" ?
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,106
Post Likes
2,131
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
ok. moving the ball form a tackled player to another player in the process of being tackled. Appreciating it isn't an official/laws term :)
OK. The events in this clip are what I would understand 'offloads' to be:

 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,106
Post Likes
2,131
Current Referee grade:
Level 2

the event occurs at 25:45 in this clip
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,033
Post Likes
1,775
I dont think we need to gtet caught up in semantics :)
Bottom line - the ball was transfreered from 5 to 13, direct;ly, not incolving a place, release, pick up.

whatever you wnat to call it.

And its irelvent in the cointext of the ball receiver < 1m from the tackle, tackled from behind (14.9 wrt 14.11 as abocve)
 
Top