coaches commenting on referee performance/decisions.

shebeen

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since this is an ongoing issue, might as well get it's own thead.

Crowley the latest to join the party.
Wonder if he'll be deemed to have transgressed anything here, probably since he is very specific about the futility of WR processes?

 

Stu10


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Ignoring the topic of coaches commenting on referees (sorry, that's your main point 😊 ), I think Italy have been on the wrong end of many decisions in the last couple of years and NEVER get the rub of the green. Regarding Crowley's comments on this game, I think all his points are valid (penalty try to Italy, first yellow card, Williams v Fusco in the air, and Bruno nearly got a RC before KD stepped in... I think a RC would have been very harsh).

Back to the original question, coaches commenting on referee performances is generally frowned upon, and trickles down to grass roots (I recently had a coach charge onto the pitch at the final whistle shouting at me for not awarding a penalty try). However, at my level there will be mistakes by the referee and incidents that they do not see, and I think everyone should accept that; but I do wonder if an elite level refereeing TO4 should be expected to fully know the laws and at least make the right decision when there is a review with replays and opportunity to discuss (e.g. potential Italy penalty try, Wales offside, Laws 14.9 and 14.10; and I couldn't believe they did not review Williams v Fusco in the air).

Maybe the real questions should be aimed at the post-match review process, involvement of both officials and coaches, and the overall WR process.
 
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chbg


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Ignoring the topic of coaches commenting on referees (sorry, that's your main point 😊 ), I think Italy have been on the wrong end of many decisions in the last couple of years and NEVER get the rub of the green. Regarding Crowley's comments on this game, I think all his points are valid (penalty try to Italy, first yellow card, Williams v Fusco in the air, and Bruno nearly got a RC before KD stepped in... I think a RC would have been very harsh).

Back to the original question, coaches commenting on referee performances is generally frowned upon, and trickles down to grass roots (I recently had a referee charge onto the pitch at the final whistle shouting at me for not awarding a penalty try). However, at my level there will be mistakes by the referee and incidents that they do not see, and I think everyone should accept that; but I do wonder if an elite level refereeing TO4 should be expected to fully know the laws and at least make the right decision when there is a review with replays and opportunity to discuss (e.g. potential Italy penalty try, Wales offside, Laws 9 and 10; and I couldn't believe they did not review Williams v Fusco in the air).

Maybe the real questions should be aimed at the post-match review process, involvement of both officials and coaches, and the overall WR process.
I hope that you reported the referee. :oops: You may have coped with it, but would the next referee? A calm discussion in the clubhouse after you have showered and changed is how errors and incidents can be resolved.
 

Stu10


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I hope that you reported the referee. :oops: You may have coped with it, but would the next referee? A calm discussion in the clubhouse after you have showered and changed is how errors and incidents can be resolved.
Regrettably there was more and it has been reported. Obviously can't share details at this stage (not sure if I'm allowed to share after it is closed?).
 

crossref


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It's an odd thing about refs : the last person to follow me into my changing room to tell me forcefully about a mistake he thought I'd made was .. also a fellow referee.

Somehow there is some feeling that the agreed cooling off period that coaches should observe don't apply if you are a ref yourself.

(And it wasn't even mistake! He was wrong 😅)
 

chbg


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Regrettably there was more and it has been reported. Obviously can't share details at this stage (not sure if I'm allowed to share after it is closed?).
Share only those bits on which comment might assist you. Don't give recognisable details until it is published elsewhere.
 

Stu10


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Share only those bits on which comment might assist you. Don't give recognisable details until it is published elsewhere.
It was primarily LOTS of very unacceptable comments after the game. I won't say more at present. I don't think there is much assistance that can be offered, but I appreciate the support!
 

Stu10


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I hope that you reported the referee. :oops: You may have coped with it, but would the next referee? A calm discussion in the clubhouse after you have showered and changed is how errors and incidents can be resolved.
It's an odd thing about refs : the last person to follow me into my changing room to tell me forcefully about a mistake he thought I'd made was .. also a fellow referee.

Somehow there is some feeling that the agreed cooling off period that coaches should observe don't apply if you are a ref yourself.

(And it wasn't even mistake! He was wrong 😅)
Oops, giant typo... I meant to say coach... I'll edit my earlier post.
 

Dickie E


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I know referees make mistakes and miss things ... God knows I've had my share.

But for the ref & TMO to talk about 'no ruck being formed' and completely (apparently) be unaware of Law 14 requirements is astounding
 

belladonna

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Has anyone got clips of these incidents?
 

SimonSmith


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I'm a bit torn on this. If I were Crowley, I'd be spitting feathers.

There is a legitimate question about the process coaches have to go through - as I understand, everything has to go to Jutge before it is handled. Responses take a long time, and may amount to nothing more than "oops, our bad".

I'm not, generally, one for hanging referees. And definitely not at Community levels. However, I'm beginning to wonder about Elite levels. I could understand and forgive a different application of standards - advantage, prioritizing the spectacle at the breakdown. But I'm starting to think that basic application of Law is something that should be treated harshly.

From the average fan's standpoint, and probably Coaches, the referee stuff blackholes after a game. Everyone else is publicly accountable, so why aren't we? The referee's total scorecard doesn't need to be made public, but if there's an egregious error, it does no-one any good to not address it.
 

Dickie E


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Has anyone got clips of these incidents?

the penalty try event is in the 26th minute (see attached)

If you can get the full match replay, the incident is shown in close up which helps
 
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belladonna

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the penalty try event is in the 26th minute (see attached)

If you can get the full match replay, the incident is shown in close up which helps
Thank you, Dickie - I'll have a look on ITV catch up. From this video I don't see a red player on their feet in the alleged ruck - am I missing something?
 

Dickie E


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Thank you, Dickie - I'll have a look on ITV catch up. From this video I don't see a red player on their feet in the alleged ruck - am I missing something?
No. There is no ruck but that's not in dispute. What we have is a completed tackle with Blue player picking up ball at the base. He is then grabbed by Red #10, coming from the wrong side. Contravenes Law 14.9
 

belladonna

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Just watched the full thing on ITV, clearly no ruck, and the Italian player arriving on his feet hasn't got over the ball before he receives the pop-up pass from the tackled player, so no offside. Looks like the To4 got it spot on.

Edit: 14.10 Offside lines are created at a tackle when at least one player is on their feet and over the ball...
 

Dickie E


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Just watched the full thing on ITV, clearly no ruck, and the Italian player arriving on his feet hasn't got over the ball before he receives the pop-up pass from the tackled player, so no offside. Looks like the To4 got it spot on.
Have you read 14.9?
 

belladonna

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Do you mean 14.9c: Any player who gains possession of the ball... May be tackled, provided the tackler does so from the direction of their own goal line?

If so, doesn't this only apply to players playing the ball in the tackle? The Italian player wasn't part of the tackle at any point.
 

Balones

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I still think that some of the Italian was outside of the 1M.:) Just the bit that was tackled!
 
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