[Scrum] 2016 LAW TRIALS - 20.11 scrum wheeled

[Ian_Cook]

Proposal
Apply Under 19 Law re: Wheeling
No Wheeling: A team must not intentionally wheel a scrum.
Sanction: Penalty Kick

If a wheel reaches 45 degrees, the referee must stop play. If the wheel is unintentional, the referee orders another scrum at the place where the scrum is stopped. The same team throws the ball in.

Justification
LRG viewed wheeling as a negative issue which generally resulted in scrum resets and time wasting.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Re: 2016 LAW TRIALS - 20.11 SCRUM WHEELED

IMO, this cannot come soon enough!

 

[ChrisR]

Re: 2016 LAW TRIALS - 20.11 SCRUM WHEELED

IMO, this cannot come soon enough!

Ian, not sure if you are in favor of the 45 limit or if you abhor wheeling in general.

I think that the new amendment to 20.11(b) will cure the major issue which is wheeling to cause a turnover. That change was long in need although I'd have awarded the put-in to the team in possession, not the original feeder.

The "Justification" for the trial says it all: " LRG viewed wheeling as a negative issue which generally resulted in scrum resets and time wasting."

The LRG and I have very different perspectives of how the game is played. They continue to emasculate the scrum as an effective base of attack.

 

[Ian_Cook]

In favour of both

We still have to allow for the fact that it is natural for a scrum to wheel (clockwise) due to the offset of the engagement (I would be very suspicious of any counter-clockwise wheel as that must be deliberate). The 45° limit allows for the scrum to wheel naturally, and for the scrum players to correct it and bring it back straight again.

Take away the incentive to wheel (by not awarding a turnover) , and you take away the reason to wheel. You also take away the reason for front rows to push in any direction other that straight and parallel to the touchlines. This will hopefully remove much of the front row malarkey that currently goes on.

The scrum is supposed to be a way to safely restart the game, and the contest is supposed to be for possession of the ball, not a testosterone-fuelled wresting competition for bragging rights and the winning of penalties. Without the wheel, you only have two ways to win the ball against the feed.

1. Hook it
2. Push the opposing scrum off it.

IMO, that is how it should be.

 

[ChrisR]

I see the scrum as an attacking platform and the wheel, both clockwise and counter, is a tool to manipulate the opponents flanks away from the channel to be attacked.

I see the defensive wheel as a tool to restrict the opponents line of attack.

The controlled wheel has become the victim of a bias that sees numbers 1 - 8 as grunting hulks and skillful play is only found in the domain of 9 - 15.

 

[ChrisR]

I must add that "pushing straight" should be defined as "along the long axis of the scrum" and should be a requirement. The sheering action of the England front row at the WC should be abolished.

 

[menace]

a testosterone-fuelled wresting competition for bragging rights and the winning of penalties.

Didn't you just define rugby?? It's just not confined to the scrum....only difference is the 'fat content' scale of the competitors!:wink:

I would think that many would rue not having the controlled wheel to 90?

 

[Ian_Cook]

I see the scrum as an attacking platform and the wheel, both clockwise and counter, is a tool to manipulate the opponents flanks away from the channel to be attacked.

I see the defensive wheel as a tool to restrict the opponents line of attack.

The controlled wheel has become the victim of a bias that sees numbers 1 - 8 as grunting hulks and skillful play is only found in the domain of 9 - 15.

I suggest that you watch some NZ & Aussie rugby if you think that ball skills are limited to 9 and above.

 

[Dickie E]

Didn't you just define rugby?? It's just not confined to the scrum....only difference is the 'fat content' scale of the competitors!:wink:

I would think that many would rue not having the controlled wheel to 90?

a wheeling, collapsing scrum is the most dangerous thing in rugby. Good riddance.

 

[ChrisR]

I suggest that you watch some NZ & Aussie rugby if you think that ball skills are limited to 9 and above.

Read again. The bias is not with me. My point is that scrum play should also be about skill and controlled wheeling for tactical purposes is a skill. I regret that scrum skills are being taken from the game and we'll end up with League scrums.

 

[ChrisR]

a wheeling, collapsing scrum is the most dangerous thing in rugby. Good riddance.

I disagree. A scrum driven backwards that collapses over the retreating team is far more dangerous.

Wheeling depowers the scrum and can be used to force the driving side in possession to use it.

 

[menace]

a wheeling, collapsing scrum is the most dangerous thing in rugby. Good riddance.

I said "controlled" wheeling....I didn't say "whip wheel with a double pike collapse". One of those is dangerous.
I've seen dominant teams able to control the wheel through to 90 that isn't dangerous.
Plus I said "some would rue it". I didn't say I would rue it!

 

[Ian_Cook]

I disagree. A scrum driven backwards that collapses over the retreating team is far more dangerous.

Wheeling depowers the scrum and can be used to force the driving side in possession to use it.

Be honest now, how often to do we really see that happen? Compare that with how often a wheel causes a scrum reset, an unintentional collapse or a PK for whip wheeling, boring, turning in, pulling back or not pushing straight.

There is a reason why U19 Laws make the wheel illegal, because of the danger involved. Yet U19 has used these Laws for many years, and there has been no move towards "League scrums" in those grades. A dominant scrum can and does push the opposing team off the ball at U19 even with the 1½m restriction on the distance of the push.

The scrum at elite level has become something of a PK generator rather that what it is supposed to be....

[LAWS]DEFINITIONS
The purpose of the scrum is to restart play quickly, safely and fairly, after a minor
infringement or a stoppage.[/LAWS]

 

[ChrisR]

Ian, I totally agree that tactical wheeling has almost disappeared. But consider the cause and effect: Scrums wheeled thru 90 to get turnover ball. Instead of changing the laws and awarding the reset to the team in possession the Law Drs. tried to eliminate the symptom and just arbitrarily penalize the team that was thought to cause the wheel through Game Management Guidelines.

Naturally, wheeling went out of vogue. Sort of a self fulfilling prophesy. The restrictive U-19 laws make sure no-one comes up through the ranks with any understanding of the science.

The proposed Law Amendments has belatedly changed the reset feed but it goes to the original feeder rather than to the team in possession. So it's clear to me that they still don't get it.

 

[Pinky]

I'm with Marauder and don't agree with the original feeder as this must surely encourage the losing put-it (in the rare hook against the head) to wheel to 45 degrees and get the ball back. Should have had put in to team in possession.