4th and 5th officials in the pro game

Shelflife


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So with the recent problems in the Quins Bath game, I was just wondering how are the 4th and 5th officials picked in England ?

In Ireland in the URC the 4th would usually but not always be a local (from the province that the game is played in) member of the national panel of refs the 5th would be a local ref usually not on the national panel but an experienced ref.

They are unpaid - the only unpaid officials at the game. Its a thankless job as if you do a good job you rarely get thanked, its only when theres a cock up that anyone looks at what the 4th official does.

Is it the same in England ?

I just hope that the 4th official isn't hung out to dry in this instance.
 

Decorily

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What problems arose?
 

Dickie E


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I just hope that the 4th official isn't hung out to dry in this instance.
Well, if he/she cocked it up, then a bit of drying might be appropriate. Accountability & all that
 

BikingBud


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Well, if he/she cocked it up, then a bit of drying might be appropriate. Accountability & all that
Perhaps but also some recognition about the time recording activities using which clocks, TV clock, synchronisation, independent control, clear signalling from the referee and perhaps most importantly the team manager nagging your nuts off that he needs to get his player back on, especially as Bath got a try immediately after his offence, they now have aline out in the corner and the massive lead you had is now at risk of being turned over.

Nothing is as simple as it first seems.

TV appears to show his yellow decrementing in line with game clock. We've had discussion before about clocks counting up and down and scope for misinterpretation, however,
  • Herbst was binned, @63.55 game time.
  • Return time should be @73:55 on next available stoppage.
  • The first time the yellow card marks came up @65:08 it showed 09:20 left whereas 1 min 13 seconds had elapsed since he was binned.
  • After 5 mins of yellow card game clock showed 69:27, an additional ~32 seconds, same discrepancy as above?
  • Lynagh actually got carded for deliberate KO @70:22 (although it took them ~10 seconds to stop the clock after advantage was called over @70:07 and 4:20 remaining) at the point were the review took place and Lynagh went off Herbst had 4:06 left on the yellow.
  • Based upon 73:55 return time he should have had 3:33 left on the bin or going back to 70:07 this would leave 3:50 remaining.
  • Herbst can be seen at the pitch side waiting to return as Lynagh leaves the field to start his sanction.
  • As Russell kicks to the corner the clocks are 70:31 and 4:38.
  • This would indicate a return time for Herbst of 75:09.
  • At the Bath line out after the penalty Herbst can be seen back on the pitch @70:51 game time and the yellow card has gone up to 04:19,
  • A 20 second increase in elapsed game clock matched with a 12 second increase in yellow card time remaining.
  • A new split of that would indicate a return time of 75:10 game time an increase to the 10 min sanction of 75 seconds since the time he was binned.
So not sure who can be dried out but clearly there are systemic issues that need to be addressed.
 

smeagol


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I can only speak to my experience, having worked the TZ just this past weekend for a MLR game.

There was an timekeeper in the TZ, who was responsible for the official time. He had an earpiece to listen to the ref comms, and had a push-to-talk radio for coordinating with the stadium/broadcast clock.

I was next to him as recorder, and when we needed to start tracking time for YC, HIA, blood, etc I would set those up (as we neared halftime, we had four separate timers going) and communicate with people who had questions.

The stadium/broadcast clock coordinated off of us - at various points, if the broadcast clock was wrong, they would adjust theirs to match what we had.

IMO, I get why the broadcast wants to show the time on the YC, but maybe until the technology is there to sync it to the broadcast clock, it needs a rethink.
 

BikingBud


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How convoluted and archaic, why not have a set of water clocks or egg timers:sneaky:

We have timing systems that can track many thousands of subjects at the same time, think of large public events like London Marathon, mass participation cycling events etc.

Looking a the problem, even of you decide to yellow card all players and subs there are less than 50 events to track.

Match clock is the lead event and the master Clock 01
Each match day player has an allocated number 1- (1 to 23) for home team and 2- (1 to 23 ) for away.

Start the match, Clock 01 runs.
Ref indicates start and stop events as required these in control operate Clock 01

Ref peeps clock off, persistent penalty warning to captain, TMO review, streaker, whatever Clock 01 stops as this is keeping track of game time.

When ref peeps and gives yellow card, player according to pre-allocated number they have a subservient clock within the timing system eg home no 8, clock 01- 45:36 - 1-08 - 10:00, is set to run.

And so on and so forth

Clock watcher has the display screen with Clock 01 and all subservient timers displayed, on the table top device and the graphics for TV and stadium score board are driven by this system.

I would suggest that keeping them in countdown time order ie shortest time of suspension nearest the top, once the 10 min period has elapsed the player indicator changes to green 01-55:40 - 1-08 - 0:00, and the player can return at the next break in play.

All these clocks remain in synchronicity to master Clock 01 so no mental maths, tell team managers to poke off as the yellow is clearly still showing and no scope for FUBAR.

Job jobbed

Ask any school kid to develop an app to do this and they will find it trivial.

Problem is we have technology that really doesn't help in the management of the game, eg how far the ball was kicked 🥱
 

Dickie E


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I can only speak to my experience, having worked the TZ just this past weekend for a MLR game.

There was an timekeeper in the TZ, who was responsible for the official time. He had an earpiece to listen to the ref comms, and had a push-to-talk radio for coordinating with the stadium/broadcast clock.

I was next to him as recorder, and when we needed to start tracking time for YC, HIA, blood, etc I would set those up (as we neared halftime, we had four separate timers going) and communicate with people who had questions.

The stadium/broadcast clock coordinated off of us - at various points, if the broadcast clock was wrong, they would adjust theirs to match what we had.

IMO, I get why the broadcast wants to show the time on the YC, but maybe until the technology is there to sync it to the broadcast clock, it needs a rethink.
TZ ... Twilight Zone?

Anyway, was the TZ remote from pitch side? If so, how did you communicate with the #4 official? (eg let him/her know that 9 mins had elapsed & the player could warm up)
 

smeagol


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TZ - technical zone

We were physically on the same side of the pitch as the teams, so anyone who needed info from us could physically come up to us and ask. The #4/#5 did this quite a bit when we had multiple timers to juggle.
 

SimonSmith


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Is my memory duff, or wasn't one of our posters the Time Keeper whenever Rebels were at home?
 

Dickie E


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Is my memory duff, or wasn't one of our posters the Time Keeper whenever Rebels were at home?
yes, that was me.

I sat in a room overlooking the pitch with the folk who did the ground graphics & advertising and the ground announcer.

I could hear the ref but couldn't speak to him/her nor any of the other officials.

I ran the game time clock which was displayed in the ground and the TV people adjusted to me.

Sin bin, blood bin, etc was (and still is as far as I'm aware) run independently by the sideline officials. I assume they made their own judgement regarding time on & off.
 

BikingBud


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yes, that was me.

I sat in a room overlooking the pitch with the folk who did the ground graphics & advertising and the ground announcer.

I could hear the ref but couldn't speak to him/her nor any of the other officials.

I ran the game time clock which was displayed in the ground and the TV people adjusted to me.

Sin bin, blood bin, etc was (and still is as far as I'm aware) run independently by the sideline officials. I assume they made their own judgement regarding time on & off.
So no end of potential causes and issues to be unpicked there!
 
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