50:22 from a free kick

tim White


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Now all we have to do is work backwards into the laws to see if it is correct.

Life seemed much simpler before they 'Simplified' the laws and added some of the Experimental Law Variations.
 

shebeen

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well, i feel that a GLDO for being held up 2 inches over the line,is not that equitable for the attackers

If a 5m scrum (old scenario is seen as unfair in the defenders for havng valiantly defended, then what about 10m scrum?)
In a different vein a GLDO for the attackers vaguely kicking the ball in goal and creating a minimum of pressure so that the defnse dot down and dont feel they have to start fraffinfg around in goal seems inqequitable for the defneding team - they werent under much presssure but the oppo are going to tget the ball back in their own half. Returning to a 22 DO seems reasonable to me.
(old thread, but no need to start a new one).

Now that this has been in play for a while, the GLDO from held up really seems like a get out of jail for defenders. The problem is that so often it is inconclusive to see if it is grounded(try) or not(GLDO). The difference in outcome here is massive, the old rule of 5m attacking scrum seems a lot more equitable for both teams.

50:22 has been an excellent addition.
 

Phil E


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(old thread, but no need to start a new one).

Now that this has been in play for a while, the GLDO from held up really seems like a get out of jail for defenders. The problem is that so often it is inconclusive to see if it is grounded(try) or not(GLDO). The difference in outcome here is massive, the old rule of 5m attacking scrum seems a lot more equitable for both teams.

If there is doubt over whether the ball was grounded or not, then the law allows for a 5m attacking scrum.

Grounded = Try
Held up = GLDO (depending on who took the ball into in-goal)
Can't tell = Scrum
 

Dickie E


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If there is doubt over whether the ball was grounded or not, then the law allows for a 5m attacking scrum.
which law is that? Are you thinking 21.17?
 

Phil E


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which law is that? Are you thinking 21.17?

Yes, this is in advice given by the RFU.
I realise your Union may think differently.
 

Dickie E


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Yes, this is in advice given by the RFU.
I realise your Union may think differently.
It never occurred to me to use 21.17 in that way ... I like it.

It raises another issue for me. As a community level referee in Australia I don't have a reliable way of finding out if that's kosher here too. I could throw up the question on our FB page and then I'd get 40 referees offering 45 opinions
 

crossref


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It never occurred to me to use 21.17 in that way ... I like it.

It raises another issue for me. As a community level referee in Australia I don't have a reliable way of finding out if that's kosher here too. I could throw up the question on our FB page and then I'd get 40 referees offering 45 opinions
Notwithstanding any RFU advice that Phil has seen, it would be exactly the same here !

For me :
pile of bodies, no clear grounding = GLDO
If you give a 5m attacking scrum then you will have 30 players and both touchlines all agreed that you have made a Law error.
So I wouldn't go there
 
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didds

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I think there is a difference between "a pile of bodies" and "doubt over whether the ball was grounded". (eg two players tussling on the ground, whilst ref's view was at least partially blocked)

however, I do agree that in reality now 30 players, two lots of team staff and the two men and their dog will be expecting a GLDO....
 

Balones

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It seems to me that if a ball goes into goal and there is a ‘dead’ ball it is made dead by the defending side. An attacking side would never create a ‘dead’ ball would they? Therefore If the ball is taken into the goal area by the attacking side and is made dead, regardless of how, it has to be GLDO. If a ball is taken into goal by the defending side and made ‘dead’ then 5M scrum.
 

Phil E


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Notwithstanding any RFU advice that Phil has seen, it would be exactly the same here !

For me :
pile of bodies, no clear grounding = GLDO
If you give a 5m attacking scrum then you will have 30 players and both touchlines all agreed that you have made a Law error.
So I wouldn't go there

On the contrary, the players are quite happy with a 5m scrum where no one can see whether it was grounded or held up.
There are still other option for a 5m scrum as well. The 5m scrum hasn't gone away as many thought when the GLDO first came into force.
 

Dickie E


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Therefore If the ball is taken into the goal area by the attacking side and is made dead, regardless of how, it has to be GLDO.
it's not unheard of for an attacking ball carrier to step on or over DBL in an effort to score between the sticks
 

crossref


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On the contrary, the players are quite happy with a 5m scrum where no one can see whether it was grounded or held up.
There are still other option for a 5m scrum as well. The 5m scrum hasn't gone away as many thought when the GLDO first came into force.
maybe we are thinking of different scenarios, let's clarifiy

a) attackers take the ball into the in goal, there is tackley/mauley sort of thing .... you can't be sure if the ball was grounded or not = GLDO
b) defenders take the ball into the in goal, there is tackley/mauley sort of thing ... you can't be sure if the ball was grounded or not = 5m attacking scrum

for me, in (a) wouldn't consider 21.17 and I think that if you did it would be a surprise to everyone
 

Phil E


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maybe we are thinking of different scenarios, let's clarifiy

a) attackers take the ball into the in goal, there is tackley/mauley sort of thing .... you can't be sure if the ball was grounded or not = GLDO
b) defenders take the ball into the in goal, there is tackley/mauley sort of thing ... you can't be sure if the ball was grounded or not = 5m attacking scrum

for me, in (a) wouldn't consider 21.17 and I think that if you did it would be a surprise to everyone

a. wouldn't be a surprise if you explain it, I have given it a few times.

If its grounded by the attacker it's a try.
If it's held up it's a GLDO.

What do you do if you have no idea which one it is, i.e. big pile of bodies with the ball in there somewhere?
You cant give a GLDO as you can't see if the ball is held up or not. The GLDO law doesn't allow for this
You can't give a try for the same reason.

So there is doubt over whether the ball has been grounded or not and a scrum is the best option.

Looking at the bold part of your option a. that says there is doubt over grounding or not, so it's a scrum.
You can't give a held up if you can't see the ball.
 

crossref


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I don't agree

Being technical

21.16 is about held up ball

When a player carrying the ball is held up in-goal, so that the player cannot ground the ball or play the ball, the ball is dead. Play restarts with a goal line drop-out or a 5m scrum, depending on how the ball entered in-goal. (law 12.12a, and law 19.1 row 5)

(they have changed the wording on that, haven't they? first time I noticed)

21.17 is about a grounded ball

If there is doubt about which team first grounded the ball in in-goal, play is restarted with a five-metre scrum, in line with the place where the ball was grounded. The attacking team throws in.


so technically when

a) attackers take the ball into the in goal, there is tackley/mauley sort of thing .... you can't be sure if the ball was grounded or not

neither law applies.

But for me - the best decision, the expected decision is GLDO
 

Phil E


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I think you are wrong, I have made my case, I am not going to keep going over it again and again
 

didds

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it's not unheard of for an attacking ball carrier to step on or over DBL in an effort to score between the sticks
Ive seen it happen once since I started playing in 1976.

It was in about 1978, and the ref didn't blow it as "the dead ball area is so short its not fair"

Obviously others experiences may well be different :)
 

Balones

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There is a difference between being made ‘dead’ and doubt over grounding. Hence different outcome. Dead is dead. In the latter there has been a definite grounding but there is no certainty about who did it first so in which case you go back to the principle that generally applies anywhere on the pitch - scrum.
 

crossref


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There is a difference between being made ‘dead’ and doubt over grounding. Hence different outcome. Dead is dead. In the latter there has been a definite grounding but there is no certainty about who did it first so in which case you go back to the principle that generally applies anywhere on the pitch - scrum.
explain that a bit more, Balones? because

scenario -
attackers take the ball into the in goal, there is tackley/mauley sort of thing .... you can't be sure if the ball was grounded or not

Dead
The ball is dead when the referee blows the whistle to stop play.


and the whistle has gone do it's dead.

plus we know specifically that a held-up ball IS a dead ball

21.16 When a player carrying the ball is held up in-goal, so that the player cannot ground the ball or play the ball, the ball is dead. Play restarts with a goal line drop-out or a 5m scrum, depending on how the ball entered in-goal. (law 12.12a, and law 19.1 row 5)


And I don't think there is any doubt that a grounded ball is also a dead ball ?
 
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