7's or 10's 2-man line out

[scrumpox2]

I need to check a couple of assumptions please, grateful for any advice. 10's tourney under IRB U19 variations.

Team throwing in calls a 2-man line.
1. Player in the receiving position can enter the line and be lifted by the 2 men in the line. Catcher throws the ball down to hooker who has by now run into the receiving position. OK?

2. Can he enter the line before the ball is thrown?

3. Catcher may be tackled/sacked when his feet return to ground.

 

[FlipFlop]

1. Receiver cannot enter the line before the ball is thrown, but there is no requirement for there to be a receiver. The hooker (assume you mean person who threw in) is allowed to run around and take the ball as described.

2. No

3. Yes

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I need to check a couple of assumptions please, grateful for any advice. 10's tourney under IRB U19 variations.

Team throwing in calls a 2-man line.
1. Player in the receiving position can enter the line and be lifted by the 2 men in the line. Catcher throws the ball down to hooker who has by now run into the receiving position. OK?

2. Can he enter the line before the ball is thrown?

3. Catcher may be tackled/sacked when his feet return to ground.

I'd say

1. YES - but he'd/they'd have to be quick - see 2

2. NO

3. YES if he came down with the ball (but you said he wouldn't) NO if he didn't. Eh?

 

[Dixie]

Team throwing in calls a 2-man line.
1. Player in the receiving position can enter the line and be lifted by the 2 men in the line. Realistically, only at the far back of the line. Otherwise, he falls foul of #2. Catcher throws the ball down to hooker who has by now run into the receiving position. OK? Hooker is fine to take up the vacant receiver position: 19.11(a).

2. Can he enter the line before the ball is thrown? Arguably yes, but in practice No. (unless it is Victor matfield, who seems to have negotiated a dispensation on this point).
3. Catcher may be tackled/sacked when his feet return to ground. Yes - unless he has passed off the top as indicated in 1), in which case PK.

#2 is the debatable one. The 2008/9 ELVs created the 2m requirement. The official guidance from the iRB accompanying the changes said:

If a team chooses to have a receiver (a player in position to catch the ball when lineout players pass or knock the ball back from the lineout) that player must be 2 metres away from the lineout itself.
Similarly, the defending team must have a player in immediate opposition to the player throwing in and that player must stay 2 metres away from the 5 metre line.
These Experimental Law Variations are designed to assist the referee in providing a clear 2 metre zone around the lineout. The referee will be able to clearly identify which player is the receiver and will be able to clearly see that the player immediately opposing the thrower is not a lineout player.

These obje tives would be frustrated if the receiver could wander in prior to the throw.

 

[scrumpox2]

19.8(i) Where the receiver must stand. The receiver must stand at least 2 metres towards that player’s goal line from that player’s team-mates who are lineout players and between 5 and 15 metres from the touchline until the lineout begins.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line
Exception: The receiver may run into the gap and perform any of the actions available to any other player in the lineout. The receiver is liable to sanction for offences in the lineout as would be other players in the lineout.

Does this exception not allow the receiver to step into the line prior to the ball leaving the hands of the thrower? What is the purpose of this exception if not to allow the receiver to join the line before the lineout begins?

 

[FlipFlop]

The exception allows him to enter. He just has to do it AFTER the lineout starts (i.e. ball thrown). He is the only one allowed to join before the lineout finishes. Without the exception, the receiver would not be able to join the line until the lineout was over, and would have to stay back 2m - making it difficult for him to take the ball and pass it out!

 

[Waspsfan]

I think the 7's variations should allow the receiver to enter the lineout before the ball is thrown in sevens - otherwise lineouts in sevens are basically ruined. Unless you are good enough to through to the back accurately you don't have enough number to lift anyone. I think there will be some rubbish old school lineouts at the National Schools Sevens.

 

[Dixie]

I think the 7's variations should allow the receiver to enter the lineout before the ball is thrown in sevens - otherwise lineouts in sevens are basically ruined. Unless you are good enough to through to the back accurately you don't have enough number to lift anyone. I think there will be some rubbish old school lineouts at the National Schools Sevens.

Golly! There was me thinking there were no lineout variations in the lawbook, allowing the throwing side to put two lifting pods if they wished! What was I thinking? :nono: :slapshead :duh!

 

[Jenko]

19.8(i) Where the receiver must stand. The receiver must stand at least 2 metres towards that player’s goal line from that player’s team-mates who are lineout players and between 5 and 15 metres from the touchline until the lineout begins.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line
Exception: The receiver may run into the gap and perform any of the actions available to any other player in the lineout. The receiver is liable to sanction for offences in the lineout as would be other players in the lineout.

Does this exception not allow the receiver to step into the line prior to the ball leaving the hands of the thrower? What is the purpose of this exception if not to allow the receiver to join the line before the lineout begins?

That is how I read it Dave.

I think we are still reading law variations that have been superseded by the 2011 Law book.

 

[Waspsfan]

Golly! There was me thinking there were no lineout variations in the lawbook, allowing the throwing side to put two lifting pods if they wished! What was I thinking? :nono: :slapshead :duh!

You expect a sevens side to put their entire team into a lineout?

 

[FlipFlop]

I think the 7's variations should allow the receiver to enter the lineout before the ball is thrown in sevens - otherwise lineouts in sevens are basically ruined. Unless you are good enough to through to the back accurately you don't have enough number to lift anyone. I think there will be some rubbish old school lineouts at the National Schools Sevens.

Rubbish.

Basic 7s lineout is:

3 in the line, no receiver. Hooker becomes receiver and passes out immediately.

 

[Dixie]

You expect a sevens side to put their entire team into a lineout?

Not really - but they could if they wished. You wrote:

lineouts in sevens are basically ruined [if you don't allow the receiver to enter the line before the throw] ... you don't have enough number to lift anyone.

The implication is that absent the entry, there must be two unsupported jumpers. My point is that you have enough numbers to create two pods if you wish. I've never seen it done, though -would a ref have to give the oppo time to react? Could be a very effective tactic as long as you don't lose the lineout :biggrin: . As Flipflop mentions, the standard tactic is a 3-man line with the thrower becoming the receiver.

 

[Deeps]

That is how I read it Dave.

I think we are still reading law variations that have been superseded by the 2011 Law book.

1. You don't need to have a receiver but if you have one he must be 2 metres clear when the line out starts.

2. If you do have a receiver, the receiver may join the line before the ball is thrown and act as any other line out player. Clearly the opposition must have the opportunity to adjust their line if they so choose.

3. The receiver may join the line/ run in and act as any other line out player once the ball has been thrown. So, realistically, starting from 2 metres out, this confines him to the back of the line out if he is to be effective.

Thus from a standing start 2 metres out, if he starts to run into the line out before the ball leaves the thrower's hands to be lifted as a jumper at the first or second pod it is highly improbable that he can catch the ball and comply with Law.

 

[Jenko]

1. You don't need to have a receiver but if you have one he must be 2 metres clear when the line out starts.

2. If you do have a receiver, the receiver may join the line before the ball is thrown and act as any other line out player. Clearly the opposition must have the opportunity to adjust their line if they so choose.

3. The receiver may join the line/ run in and act as any other line out player once the ball has been thrown. So, realistically, starting from 2 metres out, this confines him to the back of the line out if he is to be effective.

Thus from a standing start 2 metres out, if he starts to run into the line out before the ball leaves the thrower's hands to be lifted as a jumper at the first or second pod it is highly improbable that he can catch the ball and comply with Law.

But the law states

(i) Where the receiver must stand. The receiver must stand at least 2 metres towards that player’s goal line from that player’s team-mates who are lineout players and between 5 and 15 metres from the touchline until the lineout begins.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

Exception: The receiver may run into the gap and perform any of the actions available to any other player in the lineout. The receiver is liable to sanction for offences in the lineout as would be other players in the lineout.

As I read that he must stand 2 m from the line out until it starts UNLESS (ie exception to the law) he actually enters the lineout and performs any of the actions of any other player. So he may not stand 1m from the lineout until ball has been thrown but he can (just as Matfield does and maybe why he is allowed to!) run into the lineoutout be part of it!

 

[scrumpox2]

The exception allows him to enter. He just has to do it AFTER the lineout starts (i.e. ball thrown). He is the only one allowed to join before the lineout finishes. Without the exception, the receiver would not be able to join the line until the lineout was over, and would have to stay back 2m - making it difficult for him to take the ball and pass it out!

I don't understand why you (and others) interpret the exception as applying to some but not all of (i), ie the last four words. Can you please explain this?

Deeps, your points
1. as above, the exception applies to all of (i), including the last four words on when the lineout starts?
2. agreed. In practice that would most likely be the opposition receiver entering the line, not another player 10 meters back. I note that you say "before the ball is thrown" which is exactly what this exception allows.
3. Now you have contradicted your own point 2, with "once the ball has been thrown", I don't understand this.

The exception allows the receiver to be either lifter or catcher - if this player cannot get into position to do either before the ball is thrown, what is the point of the exception? I cannot accept Flipflop's explanation that it allows the receiver to encroach within the 2m and pass the ball away when 1m from the line - the exception is clearly there to allow the receiver to become either a catcher or lifter.

 

[Dixie]

That is how I read it Dave.

I think we are still reading law variations that have been superseded by the 2011 Law book.

But the law states

:
(i) Where the receiver must stand. The receiver must stand at least 2 metres towards that player’s goal line from that player’s team-mates who are lineout players and between 5 and 15 metres from the touchline until the lineout begins.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

Exception: The receiver may run into the gap and perform any of the actions available to any other player in the lineout. The receiver is liable to sanction for offences in the lineout as would be other players in the lineout.

As I read that he must stand 2 m from the line out until it starts UNLESS (ie exception to the law) he actually enters the lineout and performs any of the actions of any other player. So he may not stand 1m from the lineout until ball has been thrown but he can (just as Matfield does and maybe why he is allowed to!) run into the lineoutout be part of it!

Jenko, the law has not materially changed since the introduction of the ELVs. If there WAS a requirement that the receiver wait for the throw until he encroaches, then there still IS such a requirement, as nothing fundamental has changed.

In the 2009 law book, new 19.8(i) was introduced:

(i) Where the receiver must stand. The receiver must stand at least two metres towards that player’s goal line from that player’s team-mates who are lineout players and between five and fifteen metres from the touchline until the lineout begins.
Penalty: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

That went hand in hand with an exception to 19.11 (non-particpants staying 10m back:

Exception 2: The receiver may run into the gap and perform any of the actions available to any other player in the lineout. The receiver is liable to penalty for offences in the lineout as would be other players in the lineout.

You'll see that these together are almost identical (numerals instead of words; sanctions instead of penalty) to the wording in the 2011 law book (which is unchanged from the 2010 version):

(i) Where the receiver must stand. The receiver must stand at least 2 metres towards that player’s goal line from that player’s team-mates who are lineout players and between 5 and 15 metres from the touchline until the lineout begins.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line
Exception: The receiver may run into the gap and perform any of the actions available to any other player in the lineout. The receiver is liable to sanction for offences in the lineout as would be other players in the lineout.

 

[Deeps]

I don't understand why you (and others) interpret the exception as applying to some but not all of (i), ie the last four words. Can you please explain this?

Deeps, your points
1. as above, the exception applies to all of (i), including the last four words on when the lineout starts?
2. agreed. In practice that would most likely be the opposition receiver entering the line, not another player 10 meters back. I note that you say "before the ball is thrown" which is exactly what this exception allows.
3. Now you have contradicted your own point 2, with "once the ball has been thrown", I don't understand this.

The exception allows the receiver to be either lifter or catcher - if this player cannot get into position to do either before the ball is thrown, what is the point of the exception? I cannot accept Flipflop's explanation that it allows the receiver to encroach within the 2m and pass the ball away when 1m from the line - the exception is clearly there to allow the receiver to become either a catcher or lifter.

If we agree that the line out starts once the ball has left the thrower's hands then, until that moment, the receiver must be rooted to his spot 2 m towards his own goal line. For all practical purposes, unless he joins towards the rear of the line out as either a lifter or a jumper, he will miss the ball.

The exception grants a little more flexibility as to what the receiver might do e.g. getting a pass down and taking advantage of a contrived gap in the line otherwise he would be joining the line after it had formed. This stops short of allowing the sudden addition of a jumper, unless towards the rear of the line which, as others have pointed out, somewhat reduces what otherwise had become the most common and boring option in 7s.

 

[Dixie]

I don't understand why you (and others) interpret the exception as applying to some but not all of (i), ie the last four words. Can you please explain this?

A fair question. It was the clear intention (widely discussed) of ELV 7 back in 2008. I'm sure that someone will have the reelvant documents, or a link to the RRF discussions of the time

 

[scrumpox2]

This stops short of allowing the sudden addition of a jumper, ...

Does it? What does "perform any of the actions available to any other player in the lineout" mean? Your interpretation says he can catch the ball but not lift or be lifted ... unless he enters towards the back after the ball leaves the thrower's hands. I cannot see any basis for this interpretation ... yet, ... maybe Dixie/others can provide.

The explanation provided by Dixie in #4 concerns the formation of the lineout, so that the ref can identify the receiver and the player in opposition to the thrower.
The exception to (i) tells us what the (now clearly identified) receiver may do after formation and before the lineout begins.

If the intention was to limit the receiver's option to catching wouldn't that have been easy enough to write instead of "perform any of the actions available to any other player in the lineout..."?

 

[Jenko]

I understand what has gone before and what the perceived intentions of previous elvs were. The law, however, is written quite clearly and the only time the receiver may encroach closer than 2m is to actually take part in the lineout. There is no mention, at any point, of the movement happening after the throw has happened!

If we we're to run part 1 and the exception together how does it now read?

(i) Where the receiver must stand. The receiver must stand at least two metres towards that player’s goal line from that player’s team-mates who are lineout players and between five and fifteen metres from the touchline until the lineout begins EXCEPT THAT the receiver may run into the gap and perform any of the actions available to any other player in the lineout. The receiver is liable to penalty for offences in the lineout as would be other players in the lineout.