Accidental Offsite?

[RemainingInTheGame]

Any help with this situation:

White kicks into Green's 22m, about 10m from goal line from general play, long kick not contestable, and there were Green forwards upfield.

Green 15 catches ball doesn't call mark, just takes a few steps then boots the ball to touch in a clearing kick.

Green 15's kick is slightly off the side of the boot, is low and hammers into Green 3, who was retreating, and who catches the ball (somewhat surprised).

Questions:
1) Is this accidental offside (and what if he didn't look surprised / ie does an instinctive catch matter / would it be accidental if he wasn't retreating but was standing still and if it hit him in the back, would it be accidental if he caught it, then turned and run upfield thinking he could play the ball)?

2) Where should the scrum or penalty take place? (Where the kick was, or when the ball was caught).

In the heat of the moment, this what happened...

• I called off-side and went to award White a penalty where the kick was taken
• I changed my mind, called it was accidental and that I didn't think Green 3 could have avoided the ball, and awarded White a scrum from place ball was kicked.

Thoughts and advice appreciated!

 

[smeagol]

hard to tell without seeing it live, but I think the equitable call is scrum where it was caught.

 

[SimonSmith]

I think a couple of things would impact my decision:
1. How far away was 3 when he caught it?
2. Were there any White players close by who were denied the chance to play the ball.

The accidental offside law read:

A player is accidentally offside if the player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate who is carrying the ball. Only if the offending team gains an advantage should play stop. Sanction: Scrum.

Catching it isn't "can't avoid being touched", it's an action beyond that. But I tend to see a reflex action that can't be avoided as much the same as not being able to avoid being touched. How do I assess a reflex action? See question 1.

 

[RemainingInTheGame]

I think a couple of things would impact my decision:
1. How far away was 3 when he caught it?
2. Were there any White players close by who were denied the chance to play the ball.

The accidental offside law read:


Catching it isn't "can't avoid being touched", it's an action beyond that. But I tend to see a reflex action that can't be avoided as much the same as not being able to avoid being touched. How do I assess a reflex action? See question 1.

Thanks Simon and Smeagol for the responses so far.

1. Green 3 was about 20m from Green 15 when the ball was kicked - but it was a fair boot and moved pretty quickly and flat at Green 3.

2. There was a White player close to Green 3, about 2m away from Green 3, but further from Green 15 (so Green 3 stopped White from catching and returning the ball).

Looking at law provided, Green 3 should have dropped to the ground to avoid the kick - but that would have needed to be a quick reaction, and one against most rugby reactions to a kicked ball, so prepared to give him some leeway based on skill set (this wasn't pro-rugby....).

I think if it happens to me again I'd call it accidental, but award the scrum where the ball was caught by Green 3.

Thank you both.

Cheers

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Pretty much in line with Simon here. The scrum would be where the player was "offside" (if the offence was deemed deliberate it would be PK at the point of the offside or a Scrum where it was kicked).

To the specfics added in post 4, I doubt I'd consider it "unavoidable" / a "reaction" is the ball ball travelled 20 mtrs.

 

[Dickie E]

Would depend on the grade, but 20 metres seems a long way to allow for accidental. Given the white player was denied an opportunity I'd likely go PK.

 

[Jz558]

I also think 20m is a distance in which it would be hard to justify "being unable to avoid being touched by the ball". Sounds more like playing the ball and then realising he shouldnt have done so but, of course, seeing it live may have led to a different conclusion.

 

[RemainingInTheGame]

All great advice and why I post questions and queries here!

Thank you.

 

[SimonSmith]

Thanks Simon and Smeagol for the responses so far.

1. Green 3 was about 20m from Green 15 when the ball was kicked - but it was a fair boot and moved pretty quickly and flat at Green 3.

2. There was a White player close to Green 3, about 2m away from Green 3, but further from Green 15 (so Green 3 stopped White from catching and returning the ball).

Looking at law provided, Green 3 should have dropped to the ground to avoid the kick - but that would have needed to be a quick reaction, and one against most rugby reactions to a kicked ball, so prepared to give him some leeway based on skill set (this wasn't pro-rugby....).

I think if it happens to me again I'd call it accidental, but award the scrum where the ball was caught by Green 3.

Thank you both.

Cheers

20m is almost the distance to the 22!

You were there, I wasn't. But that sounds like dumbfuckery. Based solely on what you write, I'd be more inclined to PK there. If it had bounced off his back, or he'd dropped it, I might be more inclined to be generous of spirit. But a catch is a clear denial of the chance to play the ball for White.

 

[Dickie E]

And depending on field position could be some cheese too

 

[didds]

20m is almost the distance to the 22!

Put another way... that's basically the distance from bowler release to batsman.
Even quasi-social club cricket has bowlers at ~80mph and batsmen make conscious decsions when playing delivereies.

So TBH there is time to NOT catch it.
I do somewhat feel for the twit that caught it, but I am struggling not to give a PK in these circumstances (based on description etc etc caveats etc etc) - maybe with a wry smile.

 

[SimonSmith]

Put another way... that's basically the distance from bowler release to batsman.
Even quasi-social club cricket has bowlers at ~80mph and batsmen make conscious decsions when playing delivereies.

So TBH there is time to NOT catch it.
I do somewhat feel for the twit that caught it, but I am struggling not to give a PK in these circumstances (based on description etc etc caveats etc etc) - maybe with a wry smile.

I'm going to steal that. It's a great analogy

 

[smeagol]

I'm going to steal that. It's a great analogy

Stealing this too, and adapting to USA - distance from pitcher to catcher in baseball is less than 20m.

 

[Shelflife]

I would judge it on the basis of whether Green denied white the opportunity to play the ball.

If they did then its a pen. If not its accidental offside and a scrum where Green caught the ball.

It boils down to materiality for me.

 

[didds]

I would judge it on the basis of whether Green denied white the opportunity to play the ball.

If they did then its a pen. If not its accidental offside and a scrum where Green caught the ball.

It boils down to materiality for me.

i get what that is saying.

BUT...
If the green player hadn't caught it the kicked ball would have travelled further downfield and the opposition would almost definitely collect it. So in reality any such catch WILL have denied the opposition the opportunity to play it.

??

 

[didds]

im totally lost now.


I was answering "I would judge it on the basis of whether Green denied white the opportunity to play the ball."

which I took to mean green was offside when catching a kick by green

as per the OP

"Green 15's kick is slightly off the side of the boot, is low and hammers into Green 3, who was retreating, and who catches the ball (somewhat surprised)."
so i have no idea what anybody is now discussing if its not that scenario, as green opposition cant be offside from a green kick. [1]

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[1] 10m law possibnly from a white kick but that sint the case here surely?

 

[Phil E]

im totally lost now.


I was answering "I would judge it on the basis of whether Green denied white the opportunity to play the ball."

which I took to mean green was offside when catching a kick by green

as per the OP

"Green 15's kick is slightly off the side of the boot, is low and hammers into Green 3, who was retreating, and who catches the ball (somewhat surprised)."
so i have no idea what anybody is now discussing if its not that scenario, as green opposition cant be offside from a green kick. [1]

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


[1] 10m law possibnly from a white kick but that sint the case here surely?

My bad, got the colours mixed up, ignore me

 

[didds]

My bad, got the colours mixed up, ignore me

LOL.
Stop living my life!

 

[Shelflife]

i get what that is saying.

BUT...
If the green player hadn't caught it the kicked ball would have travelled further downfield and the opposition would almost definitely collect it. So in reality any such catch WILL have denied the opposition the opportunity to play it.

??

I'm good with that, if you think that a break was on then its a pen. If green had a defensive line reasonably set then a scrum 30-40m ahead of where they might catch it isn't a disadvantage to white.

It goes back to my original premise that if you think green have denied white an opportunity to play it then penalise them.