Advantage by securing PK?

crossref


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The Quins v Racing game ended with an interesting point

Time had expired, Quins were winning by 2pts and attacking. At first Quins wanted to score (to deny Racing a BP) but then seemed to change their mind and Danny Care passed back to Allen at 10 for him to kick it out

But in the face of oncoming Racing defenders Allen fumbled the pass, knocked on and ball went to ground. Allen went to ground himself and managed to regather the ball, just as the first Racing players reached him

Peep. Knock on, no advantage, end of game

The Racing players felt Craig Evans should have played on longer as Allen was isolated and on the floor and they were very likely to win a holding on PK.

Were they right? Or did Allen regathering automatically mean no advantage?
 
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Dickie E


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Haven't seen the game but, based on your description, the Racing players had a valid point
 

Phil E


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Caveat: Haven't seen it, so just going on your description.

Certainly sounds like he could have waited a few more seconds to see what developed.
For me the regather doesn't necessarily kill the advantage.

In previous years I would have blown automatically if it's regathered and given the scrum, but having seen many referees who are better than me give a new advantage for holding on, I now let it breath to see what develops.

However the law is mute(ish) on this point.
Law2 says
Advantage Ends when:
The offending team commits a second or subsequent infringement from which no advantage can be gained. The referee stops play and allows the captain of the non-offending team to choose the most advantageous sanction.


I this instance the second infringement was not one from which no advantage could be gained. So advantage hadn't ended.

However there may be many variables we are unaware of. i.e. Racing could have been offside at the pass back, which would have negated the knock on. Not saying that's what happened, just saying without talking to the ref we don't know what he was thinking.
 

crossref


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However there may be many variables we are unaware of. i.e. Racing could have been offside at the pass back, which would have negated the knock on. Not saying that's what happened, just saying without talking to the ref we don't know what he was thinking.
Of course that would be a PK to Quins ... And then quins might have gone back to trying to score again
 

didds

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A guess....

Knock on... adv to oppo
Re- grab ... no advantage available as oppo don't have ball.

Any subsequent play eg holding on is a separate piece of play?

Just trying to suggest some reasoning :)
 

Dickie E


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I assume the OP event was deep in Racing territory?

I wonder what the ref would have done if:
1. the event happened deep in Quins territory?
2. instead of diving on the ball, the #10 had deliberately swatted the ball into touch with his hand?
 

didds

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2) is easy. that is a PK-able offense in its own right.
 

Volun-selected


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I can see why Racing felt aggrieved - but sounds like the ref saw it that Allen fluffed it without any Racing player about to or attempting to tackle (the several charging in not close enough to change his mind…) so he called the knock-on. Ball dead, game over.
 

Dickie E


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When the ref says "if i was wrong then I apologise", there's a pretty good chance that he was wrong
 

SimonSmith


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When the ref says "if i was wrong then I apologise", there's a pretty good chance that he was wrong
Ehhh, I use sometimes just to deflate the anger in the moment. It's difficult for a POed captain to keep fighting after they've heard that...
 

Dickie E


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Ehhh, I use sometimes just to deflate the anger in the moment. It's difficult for a POed captain to keep fighting after they've heard that...
It sounded like a word salad with a ref who knew he'd cocked up but just wanted to escape with phrases like "it was a knock-on with no-one there".

So you think the ref made the right call?
 
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crossref


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I think he erred, and should have hung on, and Racing might well have been "rewarded" with a PK

But at the same time, I think it's a really interesting one .. the Law is framed about the mon offending team .. can they, through their actions, get an advantage? (Rather than whether the offending team are likely to commit a second, worse offence)

It also brings into question the matter of time .. in this instance the non offending team would want to play on no matter what, as the only advantage they can get is to continue playing or to restart the game with a PK
 

Dickie E


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But at the same time, I think it's a really interesting one .. the Law is framed about the mon offending team .. can they, through their actions, get an advantage? (Rather than whether the offending team are likely to commit a second, worse offence)
I don't understand your question. The actions of the non-offending team will always dictate to the referee whether advantage has been gained or not
 

crossref


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I don't understand your question. The actions of the non-offending team will always dictate to the referee whether advantage has been gained or not
  1. Advantage:
    1. May be tactical. The non-offending team is free to play the ball as they wish.
    2. May be territorial. Play has moved towards the offending team’s dead-ball line.
    3. May be a combination of tactical and territorial.
    4. Must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain an advantage is not sufficient

So technically it seems to me the ref was right to blow no advantage. But on the other hand he was probably wrong .. but what do you think (law reference please)
 

Dickie E


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  1. Advantage:
    1. May be tactical. The non-offending team is free to play the ball as they wish.
    2. May be territorial. Play has moved towards the offending team’s dead-ball line.
    3. May be a combination of tactical and territorial.
    4. Must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain an advantage is not sufficient

So technically it seems to me the ref was right to blow no advantage. But on the other hand he was probably wrong .. but what do you think (law reference please)
certainly no advantage was gained. But that was only because the Quins player committed a penalty offence (refer law 13.1.c)

Or are you suggesting that after a knock-on, unless the ball falls directly into the hands of the opposition, it must always be a scrum?
 

crossref


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certainly no advantage was gained. But that was only because the Quins player committed a penalty offence (refer law 13.1.c)
But he didn't commit one
(He might have done , had the whistle not gone, that's kinda the point... Do you hold in case the offending team might commit a PK offence ? )
 
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Dickie E


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But he didn't commit one
(He might have done , had the whistle not gone)
we've all probably had at least one of those moments. Player knocks on and opponent scoops up ball for an open try line just as we blow the whistle. It's still a cock-up
 

Dickie E


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Do you hold in case the offending team might commit a PK offence ?
Absolutely. I have done so in the past and would do so again. The fact that it was after the siren is irrelevant.
 

crossref


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The fact that it was after the siren is irrelevant.
Is it, though ? Would it not tempt you to hold on a little longer?

And it Def makes it more important, Racing would not have complained if they had got a scrum
 

Volun-selected


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With hindsight and video replay he should have held off.

3 or 4 more seconds and it all sorts itself out. Either the quins player has the wherewithal to get out the way, Racing gets possession for whistle, accidental knock on, game over. Or he panics, holds on, penalty (and maybe penalty advantage) to Racing. I guess we’ll never know.

However, I’ll put my hand up and admit that if I’d been the ref I’d have done the same thing and ended the half as soon as the player fumbled.

Think I’ve just found my resolution for 2023 - unless it’s for safety then I’ll try to not get caught up in the moment and give the game a couple of extra seconds to breath.
 
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