Agen vs Toulouse

[TNT88]

Did anyone watch this game? If you haven't, see this video.

Toulouse got a free kick in the 81st minute and took a scrum, I've never seen this before.

So my question is, can you take the scrum option on the last play? I couldn't understand how to interpret the law: (5.7 *e*)

If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been
completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes
dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an
option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick
at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a
mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue

 

[didds]

absolutely standard.

play cannot end on a PK or FK, and a scrum is a valid option wrt how the FK/PK is "taken".

Once thus set, resets to that scrum etc are not time over, it is just a reset scrum.

didds

 

[TNT88]

Ah, OK. Thanks for that.

 

[Taff]

absolutely standard. play cannot end on a PK or FK, and a scrum is a valid option wrt how the FK/PK is "taken".

Don't forget a Mark. You can't whistle full time if a player calls for a legitimate Mark after full time either.

... Once thus set, resets to that scrum etc are not time over, it is just a reset scrum.

As Didds says a reset scrum doesn't mean the game is over - as the original set scrum hasn't ended. The one thing you need to bear in mind however is if the set scrum turns 90 degrees, the game is over as the turnover scrum is a "new" scrum.

Some pretty ugly scenes at the end of that video.

 

[crossref]

The one thing you need to bear in mind however is if the set scrum turns 90 degrees, the game is over as the turnover scrum is a "new" scrum.

.

I wonder if that applies at U19, after a 45 degree wheel, when the scrum would be reset with the same side throwing in?
Is that a NEW scrum? I imagine not, I imagine it's the same scrum, but it's a fine difference... thoughts?

 

[Dixie]

Don't forget a Mark. You can't whistle full time if a player calls for a legitimate Mark after full time either.

An interesting point, and one I think I disagree with. Law 18 covers the mark, and throughout it describes the award as "a kick". Only in 18.5, describing how this kick is taken, is there any mention of a FK. To me, this is a world away from saying that if a player calls the mark, a FK is awarded. Rather, it says on no fewer than nine separate occasions that the kick is just a kick, and only in 18.5 does it say that this kick is taken in the same way as a FK. It would have been simple to say that a FK is awarded when a player calls the mark, thus avoidug the need for 18.5 and 18.6. That was not done, and I conclude that a Mark is not a FK, and so a game can indeed end on the call of a Mark.

 

[Toby Warren]

Don't forget a Mark. You can't whistle full time if a player calls for a legitimate Mark after full time either.

As Didds says a reset scrum doesn't mean the game is over - as the original set scrum hasn't ended. The one thing you need to bear in mind however is if the set scrum turns 90 degrees, the game is over as the turnover scrum is a "new" scrum.

Some pretty ugly scenes at the end of that video.

Taff care to elaborate, I've had direct guidance that the scrum isn't over - otherwise why wouldn't a team not just wheel the scrum to end the game and hope ref doesn't spot it - if you are 4 points ahead you can gamble on a PK being awarded.

 

[didds]

Don't forget a Mark. You can't whistle full time if a player calls for a legitimate Mark after full time either.

errr... no. Its a FK! Like wot I said ;-)

didds

 

[didds]

That was not done, and I conclude that a Mark is not a FK, and so a game can indeed end on the call of a Mark.

OOooo! - thx Dixie.

didds

 

[Taff]

Taff care to elaborate, I've had direct guidance that the scrum isn't over - otherwise why wouldn't a team not just wheel the scrum to end the game and hope ref doesn't spot it - if you are 4 points ahead you can gamble on a PK being awarded.

I wonder if that applies at U19, after a 45 degree wheel, when the scrum would be reset with the same side throwing in?
Is that a NEW scrum? I imagine not, I imagine it's the same scrum, but it's a fine difference... thoughts?

Don't forget that a deliberate wheel at U19 is a PK offence. A reset scrum after a 45 degree wheel is still the same scrum - so I agree Crossref, play on till the ball "next becomes dead".

An interesting point, and one I think I disagree with. ... I conclude that a Mark is not a FK, and so a game can indeed end on the call of a Mark.

Covered by 5.7(e) surely?

5.7(e) ... If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

Taff care to elaborate, I've had direct guidance that the scrum isn't over - otherwise why wouldn't a team not just wheel the scrum to end the game and hope ref doesn't spot it - if you are 4 points ahead you can gamble on a PK being awarded.

I understood a wheeled / turnover scrum is a "new" scrum. If you blow for this "new" scrum after full time, my understanding is that the game is over.

20.11 SCRUM WHEELED
(a) If a scrum is wheeled through more than 90 degrees, so that the middle line has passed beyond a position parallel to the touchline, the referee must stop play and order another scrum.
(b) This new scrum is formed at the place where the previous scrum ended.

Players are allowed to deliberately wheel a scrum at senior level ... provided it isn't dangerous. If it is dangerous it's a PK offence, so again play continues until the ball "next becomes dead".

 

[Davet]

Dixie

5.7.e includes the Mark explicitly along with PK & FK.

Game cannot end on a Mark.

 

[Toby Warren]

Don't forget that a deliberate wheel at U19 is a PK offence.

5.7(e) ... If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

I understand hence I put the example in my question - why would they not gamble agasint a PK being spotted?

Why wouldn't a team simply wheel it hope not spotted as deliberate and celebrate the win?

 

[Davet]

They may.

But they'd have to be good.

 

[Toby Warren]

OK so DaveT your view is also scrum 90 game over?

 

[Taff]

I understand hence I put the example in my question - why would they not gamble agasint a PK being spotted? Why wouldn't a team simply wheel it hope not spotted as deliberate and celebrate the win?

What are you gambling? Safe wheeling is allowed at senior level.

If you wheel the scrum safely past 90 degrees, it's a "new" scrum and if time has expired, the games over and we all trot off to the clubhouse for tea and biccies.

In an U19 game, deliberate wheeling is a PK offence. Take the gamble if you like, but if the ref thinks it deliberate, he will give a PK and the game continues.

 

[Toby Warren]

What are you gambling? Safe wheeling is allowed at senior level.

If you wheel the scrum safely past 90 degrees, it's a "new" scrum and if time has expired, the games over and we all trot off to the clubhouse for tea and biccies.

There is legal and illegal wheeling as we know.
I disagree with your view that it's a new scrum hence game over - I asked a direct question of Dave Broadwell (RFU employed ref trainer law guru type) his view was it's the same scrum otherwise sides would justt wheel it and it's game over. Be interested in where the alternative view is supported.

 

[Taff]

There is legal and illegal wheeling as we know. I disagree with your view that it's a new scrum hence game over - I asked a direct question of Dave Broadwell (RFU employed ref trainer law guru type) his view was it's the same scrum otherwise sides would justt wheel it and it's game over. Be interested in where the alternative view is supported.

Ok, if its a "legal wheel" why would you let play continue after time has expired? David Broadwell seems to imply that wheeling isn't allowed.

If you can wheel it safely - do it. If however you wheel it dangerously, you risk a PK and the game carries on. You'r call.

 

[Toby Warren]

Ok, if its a "legal wheel" why would you let play continue after time has expired?

As stated above the view is that it's teh same scrum and the reset don't mean it's completed.

If you had a scrum collapse and needed a reset (ie no PK) youwouldn't blow FT - same principle is beibg applied.

 

[Taff]

As stated above the view is that it's teh same scrum and the reset don't mean it's completed. If you had a scrum collapse and needed a reset (ie no PK) youwouldn't blow FT - same principle is beibg applied.

With respect, that may be David Broadwells view. Not really the same principle TW as the original scrum hasn't been completed yet. Its the same scrum ie same mark and same side putting in, so play on until the scrum has ended.

A 90 degree wheeled scrum is a "new" scrum - different side putting the ball in. 20.11(b) actually calls it a "new" scrum.

 

[Dixie]

I'll cop that one - failure to engage brain properly before hitting the keyboard. Apologies everyone.