another knock on Law question

Zebra1922


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I say try, no knock on. Although the definition if a knock on is when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, we would allow a player to juggle the ball, and if a player lost it forward and caught it before it hit the floor or anyone else, by convention we don't call that a knock on. I see this as similar, they pushed is back prior to the ball hitting the ground or another person (albeit after losing it forward), argument is they did not lose possession, therefore no knock on.
 

smeagol


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I say try, no knock on. Although the definition if a knock on is when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, we would allow a player to juggle the ball, and if a player lost it forward and caught it before it hit the floor or anyone else, by convention we don't call that a knock on. I see this as similar, they pushed is back prior to the ball hitting the ground or another person (albeit after losing it forward), argument is they did not lose possession, therefore no knock on.

I cannot disagree more. There was no re-gathering of possession in this case, so this would be a clear knock-on for me.
 

crossref


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I think the answer is uncertain, and revolves around when, exactly she lost possession.
Did she remain in possession while she juggled and lose it backwards ... or did she lose possession and then smack it back ?

Interesting that one commmentor on Facebook suggests there may a relevant clarification coming
 

Dickie E


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There are so many examples from elite rugby where this has been allowed, that it is now unquestionably play on.
Same too with lineout jumper who juggles ball before tapping back to SH
 

Rich_NL

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If a winger at full sprint fumbles it forward 3m then bats it back, most people seem to think KO. It happened a couple of years ago. In this case, though, was the ball clearly lost forwards?
 

Dickie E


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I would allow a juggler to be tackled so it would be consistent to allow them to knock it back.

Although it makes me wonder about this. If a player knocks the ball forward then fly hacks it forward before it hits the ground, I'd call that a KO. What if he fly hacked it backwards? I think I'd call it play on
 
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crossref


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Although it makes me wonder about this. If a player knocks the ball forward then fly hacks it forward before it hits the ground, I'd call that a KO. What if he fly hacked it backwards? I think I'd call it play on
I can't see how you can argue that those two are different?
 
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crossref


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What is a juggler?
.. someone who didn't have the ball, now trying to get possession
.. someone who had the ball, lost control of it, and now trying to get it back?

Both ?
 

SimonSmith


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I can't see how you can argue that those two are different?
One is knocked, and then played backwards.
The other is knocked, and played forward without control being regathered.
 

Ciaran Trainor


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Although it makes me wonder about this. If a player knocks the ball forward then fly hacks it forward before it hits the ground, I'd call that a KO. What if he fly hacked it backwards? I think I'd call it play on
This Scenario has always been difficult for me. If a player when trying to catch a pass, fumbles but kicks it forward before it hits the floor I always give a knock-on but it is a very hard sell. I can't see this scenario covered in the current laws of the game videos. It is however clear in the definitions. It would nice if a video could be included.

Definition Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

LAW 11 Knock-on or throw forward
  1. Knock-on

    playicon2020.png
  2. A knock-on may occur anywhere in the playing area.
  3. playicon2020.png
  4. It is a knock-on when a player, in tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent, makes contact with the ball and the ball goes forward. Sanction: Scrum (if the ball goes into touch, the non-offending team may opt instead for a quick-throw or lineout).
  5. playicon2020.png
  6. A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.
  7. It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.
  8. The ball is not knocked-on, and play continues, if:
    1. playicon2020.png
    2. A player knocks the ball forward immediately after an opponent has kicked it (charge down).
    3. playicon2020.png
    4. A player rips or knocks the ball from an opponent and the ball goes forward from the opponent’s hand or arm.
 

BikingBud


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Again it is about the definitions, if you fail to understand the definitions then your interpretation will be based on false premise.

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

In the clip the ball did not go forward and touch the ground or touch another player. Therefore the lack of a catch does not come into the discussion.

Where we might consider a similarity with dropped and then kicked:
  • Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
  • Drop-kick: After being intentionally dropped to the ground from the hand or hands, the ball is kicked as it rises from its first bounce.
  • Punt: A player intentionally drops the ball and kicks it before it touches the ground.
We make a judgment call, as we do throughout the game, that the player either intended or did not intend to drop the ball.
  • Intent = Kick, play on
  • No intent = Knock on
  • Player claiming intent when trying to make the best of a dropped ball = Smile at player and offer "not quite, thanks mate" > knock on.

As the OP likes to expand the hypothetical at a faster rate than the universe. If the player had juggled, dived, caught, rolled and popped what then?
 

BikingBud


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I can't see how you can argue that those two are different?
If in simply being kicked backward a juggled or dropped ball hasn't travelled forward and then touched another player or the ground then it is not by the definition a KO.

Whereas an un-intentionally dropped ball that is subsequently kicked forward is almost certain to touch another player or the ground before being caught by the original player and would be a KO.

However, if the players fumbles and drops the ball but chips ahead and is swift of mind and feet and catches before it touches another player or the ground - good skills(y)

Some players may be able to do both of these.
 

Phil E


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Definitions:
Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when
a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or
arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the
original player can catch it.


In the video:
When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward TICK
and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it TICK

So this is a knock on.
Knocking it backwards after it goes forward is totally irrelevant to the conversation.
The fact that this gets allowed at top levels is a mystery to me.
 

BikingBud


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Definitions:
Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when
a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or
arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the
original player can catch it.


In the video:
When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward TICK
and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it TICK

So this is a knock on.
Knocking it backwards after it goes forward is totally irrelevant to the conversation.
The fact that this gets allowed at top levels is a mystery to me.

Did it go forward and hit another player or the ground?

Those are defined to be the boundaries that the player that has lost control must work within.

Until it hits the ground or another player the original player is able to intervene and prevent the KO. Nudging, kicking, slapping etc backwards, or catching, all are interventions that prevent the ball travelling forward and touching the ground or another player.
 

crossref


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So I think we have, so far (please correct me if I have misunderstood)

Try
zebra1922
Biking bud
Dickie E

Knock on
Smeagol
Crossref
Rich NL
Phil E

Posted, but hasn't expressed a verdict (yet?)
Simon Smith
Ciaran Trainor

The Facebook group similarly divided

Would this suggest to anyone that the Law is not entirely clear??
 
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Phil E


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Did it go forward and hit another player or the ground?

Those are defined to be the boundaries that the player that has lost control must work within.

Until it hits the ground or another player the original player is able to intervene and prevent the KO. Nudging, kicking, slapping etc backwards, or catching, all are interventions that prevent the ball travelling forward and touching the ground or another player.

It went forward from the hands (it then got juggled and knocked backwards) then hit the ground/another player.

The bit in brackets is irrelevant. The main thing to note is that the original player did not regather it.
 

Stu10

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See at 4 min 57 seconds
 

Stu10

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It went forward from the hands (it then got juggled and knocked backwards) then hit the ground/another player.

The bit in brackets is irrelevant. The main thing to note is that the original player did not regather it.
I believe this is exactly correct by the letter of the law; however, I think many refs would say play on and no one on the pitch would question it at the time
 

Ciaran Trainor


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So I think we have, so far (please correct me if I have misunderstood)

Try
zebra1922
Biking bud
Dickie E

Knock on
Smeagol
Crossref
Rich NL
Phil E

Posted, but hasn't expressed a verdict (yet?)
Simon Smith
Ciaran Trainor

The Facebook group similarly divided

Would this suggest to anyone that the Law is not entirely clear??
Try, it is not clear and obvious the ball was lost forward in the tackle/juggle
 
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