any thoughts on this passage of play?

[Mipper]

I referee and coach u16 and have never seen a caterpillar ruck around these parts, but I know a lot of u16 scrum-halves that would have pounced on that ball when it got to the try line.

Well coached scrum halves round your way

 

[Mipper]

Actually it occurs to me that another odd thing happened in this game. One of the team was driving toward the line, in a proper ‘grown-up’ pick and drive way. One of the attackers was stopped just short of the line, I called ‘short’ and the lad pushed it back, whilst his mates protected the ball, all legal.

However as he pushed the ball back, he got shoved forward, over the line, so there was this odd sight of the player over the try line holding the ball, in the field of play. The tryline literally ran under his outstretched arms.

So I am looking at this odd sight whilst the scrum half is shouting orders at his team-mates to assemble the next carrying pod. Then it occurs to him, he looks at the ball, the tryline, looks up at me, I shrug, he lifts the ball a few inches forward and the try is awarded.

 

[Stu10]

Well coached scrum halves round your way

They all seem to fit the "Austin Healey" mould, if you know what I mean (which is maybe appropriate since I'm on the Wirral )

 

[Mipper]

They all seem to fit the "Austin Healey" mould, if you know what I mean (which is maybe appropriate since I'm on the Wirral )

a delight to ref then

 

[Stu10]

Actually it occurs to me that another odd thing happened in this game. One of the team was driving toward the line, in a proper ‘grown-up’ pick and drive way. One of the attackers was stopped just short of the line, I called ‘short’ and the lad pushed it back, whilst his mates protected the ball, all legal.

However as he pushed the ball back, he got shoved forward, over the line, so there was this odd sight of the player over the try line holding the ball, in the field of play. The tryline literally ran under his outstretched arms.

So I am looking at this odd sight whilst the scrum half is shouting orders at his team-mates to assemble the next carrying pod. Then it occurs to him, he looks at the ball, the tryline, looks up at me, I shrug, he lifts the ball a few inches forward and the try is awarded.

If not immediate, would this be a second movement? I hate scenarios like this as a referee!

 

[Stu10]

a delight to ref then

To make matters worse, 90% of them are coaches' kids

 

[didds]

If not immediate, would this be a second movement? I hate scenarios like this as a referee!

i read that to mean the scrumhalf scored, not the tackled player. And even if it was the tackled player he'd be using his arms not his legs - though i could see a call for not releasing for that anyway.

 

[Mipper]

i read that to mean the scrumhalf scored, not the tackled player. And even if it was the tackled player he'd be using his arms not his legs - though i could see a call for not releasing for that anyway.

Thats right Didds, the SH scored, the lad who set the ball back definitely did nothing wrong, he placed the ball, and was just pushed forward by the momentum of his support players. Defo no second movement.

 

[Stu10]

Thats right Didds, the SH scored, the lad who set the ball back definitely did nothing wrong, he placed the ball, and was just pushed forward by the momentum of his support players. Defo no second movement.

My mistake, I thought you were saying the tackled player was subsequently pushed over the goal line and then placed the ball differently to initial movement.

If it's the scrum half then it's an easy decision to award the try.

 

[didds]

as a secondary thought, musing... how did a tackled player on the ground get pushed over the try line by his team mates ?

 

[Phil E]

However as he pushed the ball back, he got shoved forward, over the line, so there was this odd sight of the player over the try line holding the ball, in the field of play. The tryline literally ran under his outstretched arms.

As he was shoved forward did he hold onto the ball? That's not releasing for me, as he has already placed the ball back, he can't then continue to hold onto it.

 

[didds]

As he was shoved forward did he hold onto the ball? That's not releasing for me, as he has already placed the ball back, he can't then continue to hold onto it.

but is (s)he actually PREVENTING access to the ball.
Ive spoken at length on multiple occassions about this. Holding onto the ball is not always about preventing the oppo from stealing it.

Id have more queries about how a tackled player on the ground is somehow moved forwards by his his/her team-mates

 

[Decorily]

as a secondary thought, musing... how did a tackled player on the ground get pushed over the try line by his team mates ?

I have seen it. ..
Tackle occurs....jackler arrives but fails to get on the ball but ends up holding on to the tackled player. Tackled players support arrives and engages ' jackler' driving them back. Jackler having gripped tackled player drags this player with them. Tackled player ends up getting driven forward by their own teammates via the jackler.

 

[Locke]

I have seen it. ..
Tackle occurs....jackler arrives but fails to get on the ball but ends up holding on to the tackled player. Tackled players support arrives and engages ' jackler' driving them back. Jackler having gripped tackled player drags this player with them. Tackled player ends up getting driven forward by their own teammates via the jackler.

I have seen this also and seems legitimate to me. Question then from OPs scenario, what if the tackled player had been dragged far enough that the ball was now on the goal line?
Player made no second movement of his own accord but I would not feel comfortable to award a try. What’s the call then? Play on?

 

[Decorily]

I have seen this also and seems legitimate to me. Question then from OPs scenario, what if the tackled player had been dragged far enough that the ball was now on the goal line?
Player made no second movement of his own accord but I would not feel comfortable to award a try. What’s the call then? Play on?

I suppose it would depend on what happens next......play on as such.
Certainly wouldn't be awarding a try.

 

[didds]

I have seen this also and seems legitimate to me. Question then from OPs scenario, what if the tackled player had been dragged far enough that the ball was now on the goal line?
Player made no second movement of his own accord but I would not feel comfortable to award a try. What’s the call then? Play on?

I had thought this also.

I cant see that uin the circumstances you could do anything but award it.

youve permitted a team mate to hold onto the tackled player
Youve permitted the tackled player to hold onto the ball (see my points previously)
the ball held by an atatcker has touched the ground inside the in-goal.

TRY.

FTR, Im uncomfoirtable with this too but mainly through the conflation of

permitting teammates to hold onto tackled players (I dont like it)
permitting the tackled player to then be moved up the pitch due to it.
Presumably in OB's "absurdium" thing, the tackled player cold start 1m form his own try line and be driven/pushed/pulled the ebntire length of the pitch until he scores in this manner.

 

[Decorily]

I had thought this also.

I cant see that uin the circumstances you could do anything but award it.

youve permitted a team mate to hold onto the tackled player
Youve permitted the tackled player to hold onto the ball (see my points previously)
the ball held by an atatcker has touched the ground inside the in-goal.

TRY.

FTR, Im uncomfoirtable with this too but mainly through the conflation of

permitting teammates to hold onto tackled players (I dont like it)
permitting the tackled player to then be moved up the pitch due to it.

I certainly wouldn't be awarding a try.
The only clearly illegal action in this scenario is the tackled player not releasing the ball therefore it wouldn't be an option to award the try.

 

[belladonna]

I don't think in the original scenario the ball itself is moved forward. It's just the tackled player who gets pushed/dragged far enough to expose the try line. If the tackled player had moved the ball forward after placing it then yes, clear penalty. But I don't think that's the case here.

 

[belladonna]

PS. I've been wondering about the ruck application of law 8.2(b) and how it could occur - seems like this is a case in point?

8.2(b) A try is scored when an attacking player is first to ground the ball when a scrum, ruck or maul reaches the goal line.

 

[Decorily]

PS. I've been wondering about the ruck application of law 8.2(b) and how it could occur - seems like this is a case in point?

8.2(b) A try is scored when an attacking player is first to ground the ball when a scrum, ruck or maul reaches the goal line.

Ruck forms on or near the goal line....Ball loose on ground and gets moved into the ingoal through the dynamics of the rucking action. Ball is then grounded by attacking player. Try.