Are penalties always necessary

Mike Whittaker


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Today I watched a game which was very well refereed at level 7.

The referee gave 2 penalties in the first half. In the second as the competitive element rose he had to step it up and gave a total of 5.

His management and attitude were appreciated by the players who responded by not infringing!!


Theory or rather thought for the week, 'Are referees too often using penalty awards as an easy alternative to good management?'
 

PeterTC


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Mike, my personal answer is "it depends, the key is how the players respond".

I set my stall on the tackle area out pre-match (an area both teams afterwards said was a good point as they were clear from the off), and they tthen went on and ignored me all game. As a result, I struggled having to over-manage the tackle area to get any clean ball out of there, meaning I often missed players coming in afterwards.

I gave 28 penalties in the whole game, and probably more than 7 in the tackle area alone over the whole game, not because I didn't initially try to manage it by setting my stall out and then penalising in the first 10 minutes, but because the players were unwilling. This was even commented on by my assessor when I talked to him afterwards (he had seen me do a very good game back in October), he said the difference was the fact that in October if I shouted "Hands Off" they went whereas yesterday people continued to scrabble on the floor.
 

robertti

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very good point Peter. The number of penalties a referee gives in a game cannot be viewed just as a number. it nedes to be viewed in the context of the game, i.e. what the game was like, weather conditions, how it flowed, how players responded etc. Sometimes it is necessary for a referee to award 30 penalties a game because of the inability of the players to not infringe. Sometimes it is right for the ref to only award a few penalties. But I agree with Mike as well that sometimes refs can use penalties as an excuse for not properly managing the game.
 

Deeps


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You have to be very good at determining the difference between effective management and when players are just taking the p........ I am of the opinion that very little happens by accident, that ignorance of the law is rife, all players are b.......s and ATP, 2nd P followed by a yellow card is effective management.

We talk too much and are in grave danger of exercising our egos as on site tactical directors of rugby. By all means establish the ground rules but don't stray too far from the ATP, 2nd P, yellow card principle and you will be seen as firm but fair.
 

Mike Whittaker


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Deeps said:
You have to be very good at determining the difference between effective management and when players are just taking the p........ I am of the opinion that very little happens by accident, that ignorance of the law is rife, all players are b.......s and ATP, 2nd P followed by a yellow card is effective management.

We talk too much and are in grave danger of exercising our egos as on site tactical directors of rugby. By all means establish the ground rules but don't stray too far from the ATP, 2nd P, yellow card principle and you will be seen as firm but fair.

As you say, you do have to be good! And some are better at it than others.

Regret not familiar with ATP jargon

As for talking too much... never seen it yet in the games I watch.

And as for the being seen to be firm but fair, would suggest that an automaton could perhaps gain that accolade, but would it be good management? The fact remains that some refs give a lot more penalties than others. :)
 

Simon Thomas


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I endorse ATP (ask, tell, penalise - Mike) and both personally use, and also advise other referees, to use the yellow card sanction for persistent and deliberate offences (especially in tackle, ruck, maul and offside components).
Whilst fully acknowledging that any penalty count should be viewed in the context of each match, a total of 30 penalties might indicate a lack of player law knowledge / lack of skill or deliberate cheating, or lack of referee control. Whatever the cause the referee should be using all his preventative management options to restrict these penalty numbers.
As referees our role is to apply the Laws as approproiate and material in a match, with empathy and equality - but don't ignore the pro-active management and communication aspects. Look for patterns and ask yourself, why is the penalty count climbing.
 

Wert Twacky


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Some weekends you're fortunate to be blessed with two responsive, disciplined teams who will react, respond and work with you - the other 50 Saturdays you're not.

I am with the school of thought that good game management, proactive refereeing and good communication can often keep the penalty count down. However sometimes, try as you might, you have no option but to award more penalties than you would have liked.

ATP works well (more often than not) at lower levels, but what of the new school of thought - PWB (penalise, warn, bin) at better games (L7 and up)?
 

SimonSmith


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The number of penalties on its own is not sufficient data to be able to make a judgement as to the referee's management.

Applying some kind of perspective does tend to allow you to make judgements - my take, for example, is that if the number starts to tail off in the second half, then his management (which by necessity includes applying sanctions) is working. If there is a constant flood of penalties, or even an increase, then the referee doesn't seem to be reassessing his style....
 

Simon Thomas


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WertTwacky - good point on PWB (penalise, warn, bin) although I suspect it depends on each individual refree's style, personality and communication skills, and as you suggest level of match.
At level 6,7,8 I perhaps combine Ask and Tell elements, and certainly if a league or cup match my yellow would probably be out faster the higher the level I was referring at. I give yellow cards rarely and usually for persistent offences, and always consider afterwards if my preventative management was good enough (or was the player just plain stupid or not listening !).
I find the Ask/Tell stage useful at all levels, especially as I keep my pre-match brief short. I see the Ask/Tell communication as defining my 'contract' with the players (one chance and it demonstrate empathy (which can be for negative as well as positive elements of play), and of course Ask/tell may be part of the preventative calls at tackle / ruck / maul / line out etc.
I regard my role as a facilitator on the pitch, not as a policeman (unless I have no other choice of course).
 

Mike Whittaker


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Can see PWB becoming the 'in thing' in due course... flavour of the month or similar. Could be OK at the top, or even with the vets, where just P usually suffices. At other levels ... nightmare!

Regarding facilitator Simon, the concept is good in rugby as elsewhere.

Little example .. at a line out referee calls, "I want a clear gap gentlemen!"

Nothing wrong but how about, "Gentlemen, surely you want a clear gap if you are going to have space to jump!" or "We need a clearer gap here gentlemen!" Less of the "I" and more of the "We"...

All part of the WWM approach.. (work with me)
 

PeterTC


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Very true Mike, as I was always told, for a sentence you are about to use with an "I", replace it with a "Yourselves/You".

However, I think some of the suggestions you give may just go over the head of our less elegantly spoken forwards! The simple one I always use is "Give yourselves a gap". Short, snappy, to the point and the emphasis is on doing it for their benefit.
 

Deeps


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That's a good tip Peter and gives one a chance to rethink other similar calls. A different emphasis perhaps; it's not because the law says so (even if I am applying it intelligently) but because you guys need it to enjoy your game a little better.
 

Simon Thomas


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The whole area of referee talk was raised in the Daily Telegraph recently and has been an interesting clubhouse conversation for me with players and coaches since. Very varied opinions and attitudes seem to be in evidence.
Where do we stop being referees and where do we begin to become coaches or just match commentators through our 'talk' ? Are we getting the balnce to far on the chat side ?
Casting my mind back to when I played it was very rare to have any referee talk, except in exceptional circumstances. Mainly these were London Society B panel and for top matches A Panel referees, with the occasional international referee such as Roger Q. We as players were expected to know the Laws and when we transgressed them, not ask the referee for advice.
Is the ball out at back of ruck ? We didn't ask the referee we made our own decision and if wrong in the referee's opinion we got penalised and went back 10 yards (yes that long ago) without comment.
Is the line out over ? The outside half either stayed or came up - if he was wrong 9in refs opinion he was pinged - no arm held up for us back then.
 

Brian Ravenhill


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A few week ago I penalised a centre for being offside at a ruck. It was the first 2 minutes of the game 5 meters out and directly in front of the posts. He was most put out as I hadn't told him to get back first, and actualy said 'I could't penalise him as I hadn't warned him first'
 

beckett50


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Perhaps the whole thrust of thread is in support of the preventative refereeing technique. We all know players will try and take the p**s, and often a quick "NO RED!" will let them know you are aware and will stop not only the Red player in question but the otherone you haven't seen about to do something dubious under the Laws.
We (well, I) don't set out to have loads of penalties in a game. Infact some fo the most enjoyable are where the penalty count is in single figures. Shows that the captains and players are working with you and that all are striving for a common goal. Good rugby!
I say we should keep talking and putting arms up. Anything to make my life easier.
 

Mike Whittaker


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Certainly when one referees U13 age group in their first venture on the full size pitch, the use of a lot of talk is absolutely essential if they are going to have any sort of game..

Last weekend with a county U14 trial it is clear that the players at that age group are already working to the voice of the ref (well the better ones are) and if the voice stops at a breakdown then the order goes.

So our future players are all growing up in this talking environment. At what stage would it be possible to make the stepwise adjustment to silent refereeing... I don't see it being easy but... who knows?
 
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