[Line out] Asking for Numbers

lawsons

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I ask at the first line out to clearly state numbers so the opposition can match if anything but a full line out. I don’t see any benefit in it being a secret and trying to catch a team out (not at club level). If I don’t hear it I don’t penalise a side for mismatching. If I do hear it I ensure numbers are matched. I haven’t penaliseda side in years and haven’t had a single query on it either.
 

Dickie E


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I ask at the first line out to clearly state numbers so the opposition can match if anything but a full line out. I don’t see any benefit in it being a secret and trying to catch a team out (not at club level). If I don’t hear it I don’t penalise a side for mismatching. If I do hear it I ensure numbers are matched. I haven’t penaliseda side in years and haven’t had a single query on it either.

this is a convention that, I think, is peculiar to England. I quite like it. However, not applying law because a team failed to answer your question is ... unusual
 

crossref


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WR changed the wording of the law on this, way back in 2018.

It used to be worded in line with the traditonal English way of managing things -- opponents must given reasonable time

old law
19.8(c) The opposing team may have fewer lineout players but they must not have more.
19.8(e) If the team throwing in the ball put fewer than the usual number of players in the lineout , their opponents must be given a reasonable time to move enough players out of the lineout to satisfy this Law.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

it's now worded in line with the rest of the world -- nothing at all about giving any time/warning... (i assume the objective was to speed things up a bit)

[LAWS]18.14 Unless the throw is taken as soon as the lineout is formed, the non-throwing team may not have more players (but may have fewer players) in the lineout than the throwing team. Sanction: Free-kick.[/LAWS]

After the change, I adapted the way I ref this, but in general i reckon very little impact was made .
I suspect many refs in England still have the old wording in their minds somehow.
 
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Dickie E


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I remember reffing a team who had a lineout call where they'd call "all in" whereby 6 players formed the lineout. In the spirit of the game?
 

Flish


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I remember reffing a team who had a lineout call where they'd call "all in" whereby 6 players formed the lineout. In the spirit of the game?

Deliberate or not, I think I might choose not to notice!
 

crossref


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I remember reffing a team who had a lineout call where they'd call "all in" whereby 6 players formed the lineout. In the spirit of the game?

There's no point confusing the opposition if you are also confusing the ref :)
 

SimonSmith


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I remember reffing a team who had a lineout call where they'd call "all in" whereby 6 players formed the lineout. In the spirit of the game?

TBH, in my head it isn't a 'spirit of the game' question.
If that happened live, I wouldn't count for 7, in the same way that of they call "5" I don't check the throwing team. I just count the defensive side to see how they match up to the called number.
 

Jarrod Burton


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We often hear the call numbers down here from the team in possession when the non-throwing team have less than the throwing team. Never have I ever listened to a captain/thrower whine about numbers as they are almost always wrong down here.

My bigger concern is the planned and deliberate overthrow to the backs who have shot up and get a huge (and in my opinion unfair) advantage from doing so.
 

Dickie E


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That's legal though

Indeed

[LAWS]Once the ball has been thrown in by a team-mate, players who are not participating in the lineout may move forward. If that occurs, then their opponents may also move forward. If the ball does not go beyond the 15-metre line, the players will not be liable to sanction if they immediately retire to their respective offside lines. [/LAWS]
 

Arabcheif

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I've just told a captain that their not obliged to tell the opponents or me how many they're putting in. But if they don't tell me I'll assume its a full man LO. Therefore not penalise for a mismatch. I f they tell me, I'll let the non throwing team know once (each LO), and penalise if there's still too many.
 

crossref


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I've just told a captain that their not obliged to tell the opponents or me how many they're putting in. But if they don't tell me I'll assume its a full man LO. Therefore not penalise for a mismatch. I f they tell me, I'll let the non throwing team know once (each LO), and penalise if there's still too many.

It rather depends how quickly they throw in. They are not obliged to leave the opponents time to adjust numbers. If they don't leave (enough) time, then you don't ping.
 

thepercy


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USARR's new GMGs say that "The throwing team does not need to inform either the referee or the opposition of their numbers. It is the referee's responsibility to count the number of players in the lineout, and if possible, may warn the non-throwing team before sanctioning." (bold from original document)
 

Marc Wakeham


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I've just told a captain that their not obliged to tell the opponents or me how many they're putting in. But if they don't tell me I'll assume its a full man LO. Therefore not penalise for a mismatch. I f they tell me, I'll let the non throwing team know once (each LO), and penalise if there's still too many.


You're right that they are not obliged to say how many. But on what grounds do you take that as allowing the other side to not match numbers? You can't make up laws to suit yourself. As long and the non throwing-in side has time to reduce numbers you should manage things. Which may mean a warning of ping first time but you can't assume it's full.
 

Marc Wakeham


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That's why I used the wording I did.
 

Decorily

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That's why I used the wording I did.

Not clear to me. .You seem to be saying that if there is time to reduce numbers then it's OK to manage it.
My point is that if the throw in occurs immediately the LO is formed then the numbers matching is not penalisable anyway so is irrelevant.
 

Marc Wakeham


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YOu manage numbers buy having the option of a warning for the firat offence if it ios not material or going for a FK if it is. If the throw in comes to early then you have no offence to mannage according to law so nothing to manage. Hence "s long and the non throwing-in side has time to reduce numbers you should manage things." Why would you manage a non offence? I thought that would be obvious.
 

crossref


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taking a step back -- what is the purpose of this Law anyway

A sanction for having too many in the line implies that having more people in the lineout is an advantage ...

However teams putting in reduced numbers and throwing quickly before the oppo adjust obviously believe they are putting the oppo at a disadvantage (the logic, presumably is that the oppo now have too few people out wide)


So which is it?
Or is it neither an advantage nor a disadvantage, so then what is the Law for?
 

Phil E


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Personally I have never given a FK for numbers, I have always managed it.

There is always some reason you can stop play and use that time to get them to sort the numbers out.

Peep. Gentlemen, can we maintain the gap please.....and sort your numbers out while your at it please.
 
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