Assessment yesterday

ddjamo


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Bit OTT don't you think SS? Fine ..it was an error but not one that deserves a firing squad!

I agree, L5 trying for 4, or L4 referee then yes, but level 11 come on.

I'd suggest that if you want to move up a grade, you have to referee to that standard at every game. The moment you take the approach that "ah well, it's a L11 friendly" and relax standards, then you're in trouble.

You let them change their minds in that game, your MO has to assume you'll do that in every game. And I'm sorry, your made-up 'ball hit the TJ' thing? That's just ****ing horrendous.

spot on SS.

regarding the other comments....lying? really guys? grade related lying is okay? so an 11 can let a few lies "slip" but we need to really tighten down our back handed ways once we are level 5? c'mon. ridiculous.
 

FlipFlop


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1. I give a penalty for offside at the ruck. When explaining it to the captain he ask me who was offside and at the same time the player with the ball asks me if it is their penalty. I suddenly realise that I have the arm pointing the wrong way and say (totally in jest in a friendly game) "Ah yes well I was just pointing to the player and of course the penalty is to this side". I then change the signal around the right way and we are all happy. He says it was not helpful.

It's okay to get things wrong, the question is how to correct them. You are making it up here to cover yourself. Best to just say "Yes it is your PK, sorry pointed arm the wrong way, my mistake". Honest, and open. I normally see this sort of mistake in refs who are trying to rush things - slow it down. Whistle [pause] SLOW Primary Signal [pause] SLOW Secondary Signal. You have a lot more time than you think.

2. Yellow takes a quick throw in. I don't see the throw in and foolishly say "no quick one it has touched the touch judge". Would probably have got away with this, but was wired up and the assessor says everyone knew it had not, you lost credibility......guilty as charged......a bit of a dropped bollock really.

As I said above - it's okay to get things wrong - the question is how to correct it. You are (by your own admission) making it up. Be honest, be open. Combined with your "cover up" attempt above, this looks really bad.

3. Not straight line out. I start to offer options to blue and some one from the pack shouts out "scrum please sir". I move to the 15 m line and the captain from blue says "what was the other option?" I say "the throw again, do you want to change your mind? We could probably do that".

Blue made a decision. Not your fault if someone other that Captain took it. But that isn't my issue. My issue is with the comment: "We could PROBABLY do that". Well, can you or can't you? Make a decision.

I don't care if you said: "Your player called the scrum, but did you want the lineout?" or "You player called the scrum, so the scrum it is, but for future - you could have had the lineout". In both cases you make a clear decision on if he can or can't change his mind. And if you are not letting them change their minds, you are putting the responsibility clearly on his players.

Will hold onto his advantage comments over the next week!

Always keep hold of the good, as well as the "must improve".

Reading this it seems like you are still nervous, and trying to impress the players, by trying to cover your mistakes. This also ties in with the tackle area - trying to be too nice and giving players too long, or not insisting they need to move.

Be firm, be decisive, and even at that level players can and will respond. And then you are likely to be promoted out of it, to where players EXPECT you to be firm and decisive.
 

Dickie E


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spot on SS.

regarding the other comments....lying? really guys? grade related lying is okay? so an 11 can let a few lies "slip" but we need to really tighten down our back handed ways once we are level 5? c'mon. ridiculous.

mate, you're out of line. A junior ref has put his hand up to discuss an issue and he's got moderators calling him a liar and ****ing horrendous. FFS.
 

OB..


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We have match observers not assessors
I started as an Adviser, then I became an Assessor, and now I am apparently a Match Observer, yet i don't think I have changed my approach much. Just like a dustman becoming a Refuse Collection Operative?
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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I started as an Adviser, then I became an Assessor, and now I am apparently a Match Observer, yet i don't think I have changed my approach much. Just like a dustman becoming a Refuse Collection Operative?

Except if you're Lonnie Donnegan of course.
 

Balones

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I see the role of the person that turns up to watch a match and referee and to write a report as different depending on the level.
At society level at the level suggested by the post then I see the role as an 'advisor' rather than as an 'assessor'. This is reflected in the type of report that is filled out. It will contain a brief report on all aspects of the game and suggest ways in which to improve. Refs at this level don’t generally have mentors/coaches so a more of a discussion approach should be taken at the debrief and in the report. If a very ‘direct’ approach is taken with an inexperienced ref then they may not know how to interpret the statement or know how to develop a strategy for improvement. I would expect the report to be supportive as much as possible and rather than tell a newish referee that he is not ready for the next level I would prefer a report that says something along the lines of – “you are starting to look comfortable at this level. Keep this up then you will start to be considered for the next level’. No timescale and no put down.

As the level goes up the person watching becomes more of an observer - a 'on the day this is what I saw' type of report is expected and much more direct. The coach/mentor will discuss how to improve. In all reports there is bound to be some degree of assessment even if it isn't overt.
 

OB..


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Balones - exactly. The lower the level, the more it is a coaching type role.
 

SimonSmith


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mate, you're out of line. A junior ref has put his hand up to discuss an issue and he's got moderators calling him a liar and ****ing horrendous. FFS.
Hang on a wee sec.

I haven't criticized anything else that hne has done as a referee - positioning, advantage. I think I posted helpful advice on an earlier thread.

To be clear; he did lie. You may call that overly blunt, but there's no escaping the truth. If you are a referee trying to get promoted, then stuff like that is an absolute show stopper.

Is the general premise then that for inexperienced referee at lower levels that sort of behavior is OK? I've been on the sidelines as the President of my Society when ARs or junior referees have made a similar gaffe; it has destroyed the coaches' faith in them as well as the players.

We tell referees to not guess. I think we also are obliged to be honest to the players. I've told players before that I didn't see what happened and that's why a decision was made; and yes, I've apologized for missing something. But I have never MSU on the field.

I didn't have a massive problem with the first explanation about the penalty. But I'm seeing a situation unfold where the players couldstart to lose confidence in the referee because of #1 and #2. As a player I would have done.

Are you saying that what I said was wrong, or right and badly delivered?
 

SimonSmith


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You missed the obligatory "Jings! Crivvens!"
 

Dickie E


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Are you saying that what I said was wrong, or right and badly delivered?

The OP described his error as a "bit of a dropped bollock" so is smarting anyway but had the fortitude to share it on here. A number of other posters confirmed his self-assessment so, it appeared, that lesson was learnt.

Then in come you two with both guns blazings making doubly certain that no other newbie is ever likely to offer up a confession again. Well done.
 

Taffy


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My Hat! The assessment arrived early doors today. I feel it reads better than I would have hoped. I promise it is completely unexpurgated apart from me altering the team names to colours and adding the comment about the front rows in brackets. Any thoughts? I still have LOADS to work on.........

Match Report – Saturday 17[SUP]th[/SUP] January


Well presented both during and after the match. However, didn’t speak to front rows about engagement sequence and adopting a position of an effective forward shove. (I did chat to front rows but not specifically about the engagement sequence).

Approaches the players in a friendly manner but is firm where necessary.

Did very well to keep the game going, in muddy conditions.

He was commended by the Yellow Team Captain who said he would be happy to have Tim again.

Advantage was excellent throughout

Spoke “to” players not “at” them. Decisions were well explained. See below re: being creditable.

Generally well positioned but lets the game move away from him. Must anticipate play and move off to the next breakdown quicker. However, Tim was in position to make the critical decisions in the game.
Displayed a very good knowledge of the game today. No mistakes as far as I could ascertain.

The challenge of the game

This match was played on a muddy pitch made worse by hail showers just before the start and during the second half. Blue Team were no match for their opposition who had a very strong threequarter line and superior fitness. There was some quick second phase ball and Yellow Team made the most of it. Blue had some experienced old heads playing as well as some players who had rarely played. Yellow were much younger.

The challenge for the referee was;

· To keep players on their feet at the tackle and get the tackler and tackled players to roll away
· To manage the scrum to maintain a safe contest for the ball
· To keep the game going given the poor conditions but at the same time;
· To escalate sanctions due to persistent infringement


Feedback and action plan

Once again I must commend Tim on his application of advantage. At least 3 tries came from his allowing advantage. He refereed the line-out well, maintaining the gaps and correctly identifying not straight throws. The threequarters knew when to advance. No across the line offences were missed as far as I could ascertain. Tim kept up with play well and correctly monitored offside in open play. The move to uncontested scrums was well managed. The only “handbags” was between the two scrum halves early in the first half. This was well diffused by Tim and there was no repetition, and no foul play of any note.

Action: the following points need to be considered;


· Tim arrives at the tackle much sooner nowadays, but he still needs to work even harder to get the tackler and tackled player to roll away after a tackle has taken place. There is still a paucity of number/colour/command calls.


· He must identify when a run of offences occurs which warrants the escalation of sanctions. During the first half 5 penalties in a row were given against Blue for tackle law offences. The Captain should have been warned after the third and the miscreant put in the bin on the fourth. However, 4 ruck offences in a row by Yellow did result in a yellow card for the No 3 (team offence). This was absolutely correct.


· The engagement sequence was too quick especially the call to “set”. This was precipitated by Blue trying to engage early to disrupt the stronger Yellow scrum. In addition, on two occasions the Blue pack released their binding early which resulted in a dangerous collapse. Such lack of binding must be identified sooner to avoid the possibility of potentially serious injury. In addition, the Blue hooker also popped up a couple of times to disrupt the opposition shove. This must be penalised.


· Avoid giving a double whistle unless you are calling time off.


· Tim needs to circulate rucks and mauls more to avoid being too predictable. This is together with moving off quicker to anticipate players breaking away on the blind side. Rubber necking would also help to stop the threequarters creeping up and cut down their opposition’s space.
· Be careful what you say to players. It is important that you are perceived to be credible e.g. when you prevented a quick line-out by saying the ball had touched the touch judge. On the second occasion the ball had not got within 1 metre of the said TJ. Also avoid comments like “Around the neck, be careful”. This is foul play and should be penalised. You also stated a Blue player was in front of the kicker at a 22 but took no action when no advantage had accrued.
 

SimonSmith


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The OP described his error as a "bit of a dropped bollock" so is smarting anyway but had the fortitude to share it on here. A number of other posters confirmed his self-assessment so, it appeared, that lesson was learnt.

Then in come you two with both guns blazings making doubly certain that no other newbie is ever likely to offer up a confession again. Well done.

A "bit of a dropped bollock" is softsoaping it. I'm sorry if it does dissuade, but I found his action to be as bad as my reaction warranted.
 

menace


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A "bit of a dropped bollock" is softsoaping it. I'm sorry if it does dissuade, but I found his action to be as bad as my reaction warranted.

Do you referee coach with that approach to refs in your society? I'm guessing you having referee recruitment and retention issues in your society. If so perhaps you might want to visit your style of delivering a message?
 

SimonSmith


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Taffy is 260 posts in. He's hardly brand brand new.

My coaching record in the Society is actually pretty good, thanks for asking. Because I'm actually coaching then, as opposed to offering a purely personal opinion. And just in case you're wondering, I do Executive Coaching as part of my job.

Anyway, bailing out now because we'll clearly never align on this.
 

menace


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Agree. Same.
 
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