Aus v SA Handbags at dawn or more?

BikingBud


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Impossible to tell from that clip if a try was probable without the knock on. It’s interesting that in circumstances like this, with a YC offence where advantage is played, if the team scores we often don’t return for the YC, and would rarely consider a PT although i understand your point that it would be more advantageous.

I think in most cases you cannot be certain a try would have been scored otherwise you probably wouldn’t call advantage in the first place.

But the match officials are not bound by the very limited perspective of that clip. They have the full range of cameras and angles available via the TMO, bizarre decision not to go there for a 10 second check. Watching live with different angles, no doubt in my mind.

I can only surmise he felt as the ball was recovered that yellow would score, there were no defenders out wide, so advantage. However, the opportunity to get closer to or under the posts had gone by the time the ball was recovered.

Just because they scored it doesn't inhibit the award of a penalty try, hence:

Penalty try: Awarded when, in the opinion of the referee, a try probably would have been scored (or scored in a more advantageous position) if not for an act of foul play by an opponent.
 

Dickie E


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But the match officials are not bound by the very limited perspective of that clip. They have the full range of cameras and angles available via the TMO, bizarre decision not to go there for a 10 second check. Watching live with different angles, no doubt in my mind.

I can only surmise he felt as the ball was recovered that yellow would score, there were no defenders out wide, so advantage. However, the opportunity to get closer to or under the posts had gone by the time the ball was recovered.

Just because they scored it doesn't inhibit the award of a penalty try, hence:

I can't disagree with your logic but penalty tries always seem to be when no try is scored. It would be quite innovative to blow time off after a try is scored, have a look on the big screen then go under the posts.
 

chbg


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I can't disagree with your logic but penalty tries always seem to be when no try is scored. It would be quite innovative to blow time off after a try is scored, have a look on the big screen then go under the posts.
'Innovative' meaning 'a good example' in thIs situation!
 

BikingBud


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I can't disagree with your logic but penalty tries always seem to be when no try is scored. It would be quite innovative to blow time off after a try is scored, have a look on the big screen then go under the posts.
Innovative? Why? Please explain why interpreting and applying a clearly written law is "innovative"

I would say that would be correct and appropriate but perhaps unfashionable!

We have seen PTs called when the scrum or the maul is still travelling and defending team have collapsed so it really is up to the referee to observe, understand, interpret, communicate and where necessary penalise.

He'd made a decision there was an offence, advantage called.

And observed where the try was scored, it was not in the most advantageous position, under the post.

Would have taken 2 secs to ask TMO "penalty try yes or no?" when he called advantage and while the ball was still in play. Hence my comment that some decisions were bizarre. Whilst as referees we would wish to be anonymous and to facilitate the match he appeared to be missing things that were fairly obvious.

I accept that some of this fashion is to ensure show rugby continues but the Laws are there to be applied.
 

Jarrod Burton


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But the match officials are not bound by the very limited perspective of that clip. They have the full range of cameras and angles available via the TMO, bizarre decision not to go there for a 10 second check. Watching live with different angles, no doubt in my mind.

I can only surmise he felt as the ball was recovered that yellow would score, there were no defenders out wide, so advantage. However, the opportunity to get closer to or under the posts had gone by the time the ball was recovered.

Just because they scored it doesn't inhibit the award of a penalty try, hence:
I think some of the reason that PT's aren't awarded when a try is scored is the player who actually managed to score the try loses the stat as a PT isn't allocated to anyone. Players (especially the FR) get very cranky when their try stat is taken off them.
 

Dickie E


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Innovative? Why? Please explain why interpreting and applying a clearly written law is "innovative"

innovative​

/ˈɪnəvətɪv/

adjective
(of a product, idea, etc.) featuring new methods; advanced and original.
I'll leave the hair splitting to you
 

SimonSmith


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Doesn't have to be a certain try scoring opportunity, just probable. League has the caveat that a PT is only awarded if a certain try was prevented which I think is too onerous as people argue that a player steaming in from 5m out with the ball wrapped up tight might spontaneously drop it, which is unlikely.
*Waqa Blake has entered the forums*
 

Phil E


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I can't disagree with your logic but penalty tries always seem to be when no try is scored. It would be quite innovative to blow time off after a try is scored, have a look on the big screen then go under the posts.

No big screen but it happened in my sons game yesterday.
Opposition player intercepts and no one can catch him, by half way everyones given up chasing him execpt for one player.
That player catches him 5m out and high tckles him over the shoulder and round the neck. They both go over the goal line and the try is scored in the corner.
Ref gives a penalty Try and a yellow card. When I asked him about it he said if you take away the tackler then the try scorer would have gone under the posts. I coulndt argue with his logic...or quick thinking.
 

Jz558


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I cant help thinking that when they changed the law to make the conversion unnecessary for a penalty try they should have changed the wording of law 8.3. Given that the advantage of scoring under the posts is only to make the conversion easier, even a regular try scored between the posts carries the risk of the kick being missed and therefore is less advantageous than awarding a penalty try.

To play devil's advocate somewhat, if there is no positional advantage to a try being scored following an act of foul play does the current wording permit a penalty try to be awarded? Is the point of the penalty try to guarantee 7 points to the scoring side and if so why mention positional advantage as one of the criteria?

As an aside, I have watched the first two National 1 league games this season at my local club. A penalty try has been awarded in each of the two games and in neither case was a player yellow carded. Both came from collapsed mauls/scrums so maybe the ref just decided he couldn't identify the offender.
 

Rich_NL

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To play devil's advocate somewhat, if there is no positional advantage to a try being scored following an act of foul play does the current wording permit a penalty try to be awarded? Is the point of the penalty try to guarantee 7 points to the scoring side and if so why mention positional advantage as one of the criteria?

I don't believe it does. A PT is in cases where foul play prevents the BC from scoring - either before the goal line or behind it on the way to the posts.

Which indeed makes a high tackle that prevents a try near touch more valuable/less risky to the attacking team than a worse high tackle in front of the posts that gets grounded for a try. But otherwise you're saying foul play on the way to scoring instantly means a successful conversion and YC, which takes some flexibility from the ref and reduces the benefit of kicking skill.

Additionally, some players (especially at higher levels) would rather have the try under their name, than a team penalty try.
 

didds

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Its all contextual.

6 points down and into 80+ minutes they'll take the PT and 7 points every time.,
 

Volun-selected


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As an aside, I have watched the first two National 1 league games this season at my local club. A penalty try has been awarded in each of the two games and in neither case was a player yellow carded. Both came from collapsed mauls/scrums so maybe the ref just decided he couldn't identify the offender.
Makes me wonder if part of the issue/reticence to issue a PT after advantage leads to a try in the corner less due to the extra 2 points and more on the subsequent YC taking the team down to 14 or less. Would we see more PTs if the YC wasn’t mandatory?
 

Volun-selected


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Just because they scored it doesn't inhibit the award of a penalty try, hence:
Does make you wonder how much space fits the “…or scored in a more advantageous position”?

Easy call if the in-goal is empty and they could have run in and touched it down under the sticks - but what if they’d only get to in 10 or 20m in from the touch line?

Does it vary by age grade/ability? Moving a conversion kick in 20m from the line will make a difference for a good adult team (as long as I wasn’t kicking for them], but would make no difference for the U14s I’ve reffed this season.

Or do we just stick to the law and penalize them for stupidity that close to or in an empty in-goal even if the try is made and just communicate afterwards that “yes they scored, but they could have got in closer”?
 

didds

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maybe this is where the potential of asking the scoring captain would be a useful option

as in
"captain, do you want the try awarded to the scorer there for 5 points and a conversion to come " [points to place ball was dotted down ] or a PT and 7 points but no try scorer?"

I appreciate this isn't a possibility under current laws
then agaihn AFAIK there is nothing "official" about being a try scorer or not so there's nothing preventing the club for its own internal purposes crediting the player that was otherwise prevented form scoring in a more advantageous position.
 

Jz558


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maybe this is where the potential of asking the scoring captain would be a useful option

as in
"captain, do you want the try awarded to the scorer there for 5 points and a conversion to come " [points to place ball was dotted down ] or a PT and 7 points but no try scorer?"

I appreciate this isn't a possibility under current laws
then agaihn AFAIK there is nothing "official" about being a try scorer or not so there's nothing preventing the club for its own internal purposes crediting the player that was otherwise prevented form scoring in a more advantageous position.

Good idea but the cynic in me thinks the reply from the Captain goes "If I choose the try will you still yellow card the offender? If not we'll have the PT and yellow card thanks"
 

belladonna

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So many SA armchair referees demanding AA get a red for an eye gouge while conveniently ignoring the lead up and EE showing all the aggression and an open handed rake at the face (at 27 seconds) in that video. Got to start wondering when almost a whole country complain about the ref when they win and when they lose - maybe it's not all the referees but the colour of the glasses.
That's a good spot - I didn't see EE's one-handed rake until you pointed it out. Strangely it didn't get any replays, and AA's got plenty. Why neither of them got carded is a complete mystery!!
 

BikingBud


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Does make you wonder how much space fits the “…or scored in a more advantageous position”? - Unsure what you mean by space. Is it not distance from the centre of the posts, as this would be the most advantageous position to kick from.

Easy call if the in-goal is empty and they could have run in and touched it down under the sticks - but what if they’d only get to in 10 or 20m in from the touch line?- Irrespective you must still asses the probability of scoring in a more advantageous position. So if covering defenders are in position to stop the attack, and prevent the score legally, including in a more advantageous position in-goal, then the likelihood of getting to the middle must be lower than if there are no covering defenders.

Does it vary by age grade/ability? Moving a conversion kick in 20m from the line will make a difference for a good adult team (as long as I wasn’t kicking for them], but would make no difference for the U14s I’ve reffed this season. - As advantage for all aspects of the game is such a variable and is likely played to differing criteria for differing levels of players then the advantageous position should also be viewed in that same context. So yes for junior payers with lower skills and abilities who now may not be required to test their skill anything might be an advantage.

Or do we just stick to the law and penalize them for stupidity that close to or in an empty in-goal even if the try is made and just communicate afterwards that “yes they scored, but they could have got in closer”? - Maybe setting the trend as has been done for the almost automatic penalty for deliberate KO (even when wrapping for a tackle) awarding penalty tries may quickly become widely accepted for both elements of the law.
 

Mipper


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I do wonder how No8’s feel about the tendency to award PT and not gain the pushover tries, when the scrums are marching forward.

I understand that there is a safety issue if the scrums go down, but usually they go up or around.
 
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