[Scrum] Ball against the head offside -- how to prevent

[peperami]

Hi

I seem to be encountering a problem whenever the ball is lost against the head in the scrum. Namely the formerly attacking backs rush up to the hind most foot of the scrum ignoring the call from me to stay 5. Ball comes out, immediate penalty advantage as the space has been completely closed down.

What I'm interested in is how others deal with this to prevent the penalty/advantage needing to be given, they seem to ignore the call of hold as soon as the ball is lost.

Thoughts

Ben

 

[crossref]

Yes, this happens in my games as well .. don't know why !
I do the same you .. tell them to get back but often they don't . I think all you can do is PK

 

[beckett50]

A good question peperami.

Remember that it is the responsibility of the #10 to ensure that the 3/4s do not encroach too soon. If you are telling them to retreat and they do not then you have to escalate the sanction.

I would suggest that at the second instance of this happening you call "Time off" and call over both the captain and the #10. Explain to the Captain what the #10 is doing wrong. Hopefully this will deal with it.

If not then next time it happens - by all means play the Penalty Advantage - you YC the #10.:noyc:

Bet it won't happen again - even when he comes back on because he will know that the next card shown to him will be a red

Don't be afraid to use the tools in your armoury.

 

[Martin Doughty]

I often include this in my PMB - "Guys, 10m - at least - from the lineouts; 5m - at least - from the scrums, even on your own ball. And if you lose it against the head then don't come up over the 5m line.".
If it happens (and I am seeing fewer going against the head this season) then they cannot claim to be surprised if I ping them.

 

[Dickie E]

Remember that it is the responsibility of the #10 to ensure that the 3/4s do not encroach too soon.
No its not. Each player is responsible for their own action


If not then next time it happens - by all means play the Penalty Advantage - you YC the #10.:noyc:
You YC the player/s who are guilty of the offence irrespective of the number on their back or what position they are playing

msf..

 

[Pegleg]

msf..

Spot on. It is not the fault of the 10 specifically.

It is really fairly simple. Hand up to keep BOTH sides back on or behind the 5. If they come up ping them and deal with warnings cards ertc as required by the situation and game.

 

[didds]

If not then next time it happens - by all means play the Penalty Advantage - you YC the #10.:noyc:

.

Really?


What if the #10 is telling them to hold but the centres don;t listen?

What if its the #15 at first out for defensive lineups? What if the #15 is saying hold but the centres don't listen?

Why not actually card the player you first see advance to < 5m? Rather than second guess what is happening?

didds

 

[DocY]

Happens for me quite regularly, too.

If it first happens early on, I'll usually not play advantage (though that depends on field position).

I'll immediately shout "stay 5!" then blow up as soon as the ball's out, shouting that they need to stay 5m behind the 8's feet.

I find this gets the point across more than playing advantage. Play advantage and you either don't give a penalty at all, or it's so much later that the message doesn't get through properly.

 

[OB..]

At most PMBs I hear, the referee asks the #10 to take responsibility for keeping his backs onside so that the ref doesn't have to do so.

(Obviously you can only penalise the player who is actually offside, not the #10.)

 

[tim White]

I agree, blowing for infringements early in the game probably means you blow fewer times later on; another form of management.
QUESTION: is it better to be perceived as 'cruel and heartless':knuppel2: early in the game or 'inconsistent' later on when you get fed up of trying to 'manage' the game :yellow:??

 

[beckett50]

Sorry for people taking my singling out of the #10 so literally.

Of course, you penalise the encroaching player. As OB as said, we can - as referees- put responsibility on players (as we do with Captains concerning discipline) before the match.

 

[thepercy]

Happens for me quite regularly, too.

If it first happens early on, I'll usually not play advantage (though that depends on field position).

I'll immediately shout "stay 5!" then blow up as soon as the ball's out, shouting that they need to stay 5m behind the 8's feet.

I find this gets the point across more than playing advantage. Play advantage and you either don't give a penalty at all, or it's so much later that the message doesn't get through properly.

Why not play advantage, and if its gained, next scrum, during the down time forming up the scrum, have a quick word, that way it'll be fresh in the backs minds.

 

[Pegleg]

Sorry for people taking my singling out of the #10 so literally.

Of course, you penalise the encroaching player. As OB as said, we can - as referees- put responsibility on players (as we do with Captains concerning discipline) before the match.

sorry but this is quite clear:

Remember that it is the responsibility of the #10 to ensure that the 3/4s do not encroach too soon. If you are telling them to retreat and they do not then you have to escalate the sanction.

I would suggest that at the second instance of this happening you call "Time off" and call over both the captain and the #10. Explain to the Captain what the #10 is doing wrong. Hopefully this will deal with it.

If not then next time it happens - by all means play the Penalty Advantage - you YC the #10.:noyc:

Bet it won't happen again - even when he comes back on because he will know that the next card shown to him will be a red

If you don't want your post to be taken literally best not use such wording.

Whilst we put repsponsibility on a specific person we can't penalise then if they fail.

I tell teams. "Discipline: This starts with each player . Then it becomes the captains job. FINALLY it comes to me and my options are limited." Meaning, if you as a paler can't behave it moves up the line. when it gets to me YOU, the player, are facing cards.

 

[SimonSmith]

Why not play advantage, and if its gained, next scrum, during the down time forming up the scrum, have a quick word, that way it'll be fresh in the backs minds.

Fair question.
For my money...players want space, and therefore time, to play. If the space is taken away, as it is in this case, playing advantage, unless I see it immediately open, is less likely to happen.
Misaligned defence? Sure, let's play. One for one mark up with a rush? Defence with a shooter? Less likely.

 

[TigerCraig]

What's a ball against the head?

 

[Dickie E]

What's a ball against the head?

where the team that doesn't feed the scrum, wins the scrum.

 

[TigerCraig]

Where's your sarcasm detector Dickie ? Only see 1 a season so not something to worry about :tongue:

 

[menace]

What's a ball against the head?

where the team that doesn't feed the scrum, wins the scrum.

Where's your sarcasm detector Dickie ? Only see 1 a season so not something to worry about :tongue:

I was damn certain Dickie was going to mention "frank and beans" instead...:Nerv:I was pleasantly surprised by his restraint. Good for you Dickie!

 

[Dickie E]

I was damn certain Dickie was going to mention "frank and beans" instead...:Nerv:I was pleasantly surprised by his restraint. Good for you Dickie!

with a thread about balls against heads I was going to chuck in a gag about balls and chins ... but thought better of it :redface:

 

[Camquin]

I might only see one clean hook against he head, but I see plenty of weak packs pushed off the ball.
Which is worse as the backs not only come up too far, they don't retreat with the scrum.