Ball in touch ?

wrighty


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A)Under Law 19 Definitions it says if a player jumps up and catches the ball then he must land with both feet in the field of play,does it matter if he takes off from outside the field of play eg a winger who has dropped so deep he is well outside field of play,jumps high,catches the ball after it has crossed the touch line,but his momentum means he lands in the field of play ?
B)If a player in the field of play jumps up crosses touch line in mid-air and knocks ball back into play,but then he lands outside field of play ?
 

Dixie


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Taff


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In fairness though Dixie, Wrighty only has 20 posts to date, so is probably feeling his way round the forum.
 

wrighty


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still confused ,i replied on the other thread,see scenario 3 page 14,thats actually more confusing !
Can't find a clear answer to part A of my original question either ?

- - - Updated - - -

cheers taff !

- - - Updated - - -

cheers taff !

- - - Updated - - -

Am I right in thinking that part A is in touch then ?
and part B still havent a clue !
 

menace


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Ok...I'll have a crack for you. On the basis if I were AR/ref then I would call the following (so no guarantee I have it right...so just based on what I think)

A - in touch (kicker put it there). Ie ball outside of touch plane, catcher in touch, and catches and therefore holds ball outside of touch. Now irrelevant that feet land in touch.

B- i)assuming ball has not crossed plane of touch...play on (assuming gone backwards too).
ii) If ball clear and obvious has crossed plane of touch AND player also crossed plane then in touch (by kicker).
iii) If ball clear and obvious has crossed plane of touch AND player has got rid of ball before crossed plane of touch then play on.

From 'line ball your call'

Red player punts the ball from outside his own 22m area and the ball crosses the touch-line on the full. An opponent standing in the field-of-play leaps in the air and before he crosses the touch-line slaps the ball back into the field of play. He then lands in touch.
(a) Is the ball in touch? NO

Note:The determining factor in whether the ball is in touch is not whether the player was in the air or where he lands. It is simply whether the body was beyond the touch-line when the contact was made. my highlight


Red player punts the ball from outside his own 22m area and the ball crosses the touch-line on the full. A blue opponent standing in the field-of-play leaps in the air and after he crosses the touch-line slaps the ball back into the field of play.
(a) Is the ball in touch? YES
(b) Where is the line-out? The line-of-touch is where the red player kicked the ball
(c) Team to throw in. Blue
 
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Phil E


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If you are in midair and you catch and hold the ball, it doesn't matter where you started from, all that matters is where you land. If you land in touch, so is the ball. If you land in the field of play, so is the ball.

If you slap or knock the ball, it matters not where you are, all that matters is, has the ball crossed the plane of touch. If it has, the ball is in touch. If it hasn't, then play on.
 

OB..


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If you are in midair and you catch and hold the ball, it doesn't matter where you started from, all that matters is where you land. If you land in touch, so is the ball. If you land in the field of play, so is the ball.
Is that really official?

I find it hard to believe that a player can jump from in touch, catch the ball after it has crossed the plane, and land in field without the ball being in touch. It would surely be an excellent tactic to use eg against a long touch-finder from a PK, but I don't think I have ever seen anybody try it, and it conflicts with the RDO's view I was given some years ago.

If you slap or knock the ball, it matters not where you are, all that matters is, has the ball crossed the plane of touch. If it has, the ball is in touch. If it hasn't, then play on.
That is true if you are on the ground. Does your previous point not imply that it can be different if you have jumped and land in the field of play?
 

Guyseep


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If you are in midair and you catch and hold the ball, it doesn't matter where you started from, all that matters is where you land. If you land in touch, so is the ball. If you land in the field of play, so is the ball.

I don't think this is true. If the ball is kicked and passes the plane of touch, and it touches something beyond the plane of touch, then it is in touch.
From the lineball your call pdf put out by the ARU:
If the ball, which has crossed the plain-of-touch, touches a player
beyond the touch-line, the ball is in-touch, regardless of whether the
player is on the ground or jumping in the air. The ball has been put
in-touch by the kicking team.
 

Phil E


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If you are in midair and you catch and hold the ball, it doesn't matter where you started from, all that matters is where you land. If you land in touch, so is the ball. If you land in the field of play, so is the ball.

Is that really official?
I find it hard to believe that a player can jump from in touch, catch the ball after it has crossed the plane, and land in field without the ball being in touch.

I don't think this is true. If the ball is kicked and passes the plane of touch, and it touches something beyond the plane of touch, then it is in touch.

Read the definitions of Law 19. (My numbering for reference).

[LAWS]DEFINITIONS
1) The ball is in touch when it is not being carried by a player and it touches the touchline or anything or anyone on or beyond the touchline.
2) The ball is in touch when a player is carrying it and the ball carrier (or the ball) touches the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline. The place where the ball carrier (or the ball) touched or crossed the touchline is where it went into touch.
3)The ball is in touch if a player catches the ball and that player has a foot on the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline. If a player has one foot in the field of play and one foot in touch and holds the ball, the ball is in touch.[/LAWS]

First one doesn't count because we are talking about the ball being carried or held.
Second one only counts if the player carrying the ball touches 'the ground' beyond the touch line. As he is in the air the ball is not in touch.
Third one doesn't count because the player does not have a foot on the ground.

We know a player in the field of play can catch a ball that is beyond the touch line, providing he is not in touch himself (feet in the field of play), and can play on.
If he is in the air we have the same situation and it is not until his feet touch the ground that his position is determined.

You could (probably will) argue that the first definition means that as soon as he catches the ball, as he is beyond the touch line, the ball is in touch, even though he is in the air. But the definitions then go on to clarify that in touch means foot on or beyond the line. In addition if this were the case then the player catching the ball beyond the line, with his toes just in the field of play, would be in touch because the ball has touched something beyond the line (his hands and arms). We know that isn't the case, so what defines being in touch? The only conclusion is being on the line or on the ground beyond it.

Happy New Year!
 

Womble

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Have to say that I'm with Phil here, (we have discussed this before OB) Where the player lands if he catches the ball in the air should make it easier for all to make the call!
 

Taff


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If you are in midair and you catch and hold the ball, it doesn't matter where you started from, all that matters is where you land. If you land in touch, so is the ball. If you land in the field of play, so is the ball.
Is that really official? I find it hard to believe that a player can jump from in touch, catch the ball after it has crossed the plane, and land in field without the ball being in touch. It would surely be an excellent tactic to use eg against a long touch-finder from a PK, but I don't think I have ever seen anybody try it, and it conflicts with the RDO's view I was given some years ago.
Are we over complicating things. For what it's worth, I'm with OB on this one.

The ball is in touch when a player is carrying it and the ball carrier (or the ball) touches the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline. The place where the ball carrier (or the ball) touched or crossed the touchline is where it went into touch.

Imagine a player sprinting from midfield towards touch and juping to catch a ball dropping say 2m infield, but he's going so fast that he lands in touch. Would we honestly say he hadn't put the ball in touch? To me, the plane of touch is the critical bit. He is effectively carrying the ball (he caught it in mid air) and crossed the plane of touch with it. As I understand it, if he caught the ball before it crossed the plane of touch he took it into touch (how else did it get there?) and if he caught it after it had crossed the plane of touch, he didn't put it in touch.
 
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Womble

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But Taff, we have to apply the same logic to the 22m line and goal line, so would it not just be easier to say that it's where the player lands! We as referees may struggle to see which side of the plain the player caught the ball.
 

Robert Burns

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OB..'s counter debate has always been, and rightly so:

If a player of enough skill, leaps far enough where they are able to catch (not knock) the ball and then pass it legally to a team mate, before they or the ball have crossed the plane of touch, and they then land in touch, was the ball in touch?

Common sense says no, the ball have never been in touch so play on, but to the technical aspect of the law, it is in touch.

Also, I believe the RFU (Womble/KML1/jacko/David Rose, can you clarify?) also have the stance that if the ball is caught before the plane of touch, and then the player lands in touch, the catcher took it in to touch. But if they catch it on/over the plan of touch, the kicker put it there.

This is again against what the law says, and is why we have a clarification request about it on our wiki. The law needs revised, or advice to adhere to exactly how the law is worded (inc interpretation) is required.
 

Phil E


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........ if the ball is caught before the plane of touch, and then the player lands in touch, the catcher took it in to touch.

Robbie and Taff.

That is exactly what I said. But if that is the case, then the opposite must also be true, that if the same runner starts in touch, catches the ball in the air and then lands in the field of play, then the ball is NOT in touch. You can't have one without he other. That IS what the law says, as I demonstrated.

Incidentally, we are in danger of muddying two issues here.
1) is it in touch.
2) who put it there.

My post addressed point 1 only.
 

OB..


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I’m afraid this thread is going to be a reprise of earlier threads, and not much use to wrighty.

Have to say that I'm with Phil here, (we have discussed this before OB) Where the player lands if he catches the ball in the air should make it easier for all to make the call!
We have indeed discussed it before, and I have even produced my own version of the opening definitions in Law 19 in an attempt to clarify the issues and point out areas of doubt.

I asked if Phil E’s view was official because I am not aware of an authoritative pronouncement. If there is one, I will of course go along with it, whether I agree with it or not, but until one appears, we are simply giving our own views on what is most definitely an unclear law. The only reference to a player in the air is[LAWS]If a player jumps and catches the ball, both feet must land in the playing area otherwise the ball is in touch or touch-in-goal.[/LAWS]
If the player is still holding the ball when he lands in touch, then we would all agree the ball is in touch, but we will not necessarily agree as to who put it there if he had not crossed the plane before the catch. The law does not tell us, so we have to make up our own minds.

Let me restate the situation I alluded to earlier:

Blue have a penalty on their own 22, 5m from touch. The kicker tries for as much length as he can, and so the ball travels almost parallel to the touchline, eventually crossing the line well downfield. Left alone it would drop less than a metre in touch, and we often see a player carefully standing with his feet in play, trying to catch the ball or knock it back into play. However it would surely make more sense (if permitted) for the player to start in touch, run and jump to catch the ball and land in the field of play. It would not even matter if he failed to make a catch – the ball would surely be ruled in touch, so he lost nothing. Yet nobody tries it.

As Womble says, judging where the player lands is much easier than judging where he is the air, but it leads to odd results. My own studies lead me to the conclusion that the optimum solution is to treat a player in the air as if he were on the ground immediately below him.
 

Davet

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Basically whatever the ref does there will be competent people who both agree and disagree with him. So he is hung whatever decision he makes. So make the one that feels right to you.

If your assessor questions you about then if you can show you understand the issue, and have made a decision based on Law then he won't be able to whinge over much - he may offer future guidance - ask him to put in the report; then when you meet an assessor who has a different view you can say - but I was told by X in an a report to call it this way... let them fight it out when you raise it at the next society meeting... which hopefully will then give you guidance on which you can rely - at least until your first exchange match...
 

wrighty


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cheers OB ,things are alittle complicated but I think I've got my head around scenario A.Reading p.19,scenario 5 of the Line Ball pdf,the note clearly states that the same answer would apply if the opponent landed in the field of play i.e. in touch
Also P.14,scenario3 and p 15 scenario 1 seem to clear up B),i.e. not in touch if players body stays in play when he's in the air provided only his arms reach into touch to slap ball back and page 15 scenario 1 players body is over the touch line in the air when he slaps ball back,therefore ball in touch
 
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