[Law] Ball kicked hits overhanging tree branch and falls back onto pitch

Ian_Cook


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Ob is right
This was a law introduced in the 2017 rewrite

And it wasn't written specifically for tree branches. It was in relation to the supporting wired for Spidercams and for drone cameras
 

crossref


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[LAWS]Law 19: The referee awards a scrum for any other reason not covered in law.[/LAWS]

maybe it should say "The referee awards a lineout for any other reason not covered in law" but it doesn't.

you are dissembling !

you quote from Law 19.1 which is about
[LAWS]
Where the game is restarted with a scrum and which team throws in is determined as follows[/LAWS]

so IF the referee awards a scrum for a reason not covered in Law, THEN Law 19 tells you that the scrum would be

[LAWS]In the scrum zone at the point closest to the place of stoppage. [/LAWS]

and the put in would go to [LAWS]he team that was last moving forward or, if neither team was moving forward, the attacking team.[/LAWS]

But why award a scrum ?

6.9.f tells you when the when the ball hits an overhead object the ball is dead.
If that object is a tree, and the ball was going out anyway, then a lineout is also within the Law, and would seem to me the best one.

6.9.f allows some judgement, happily. The only option the ref can't do is 'play on' (because the ball is dead)
 
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crossref


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And it wasn't written specifically for tree branches. It was in relation to the supporting wired for Spidercams and for drone cameras

and didn't the ball hit the wire in the Wales NZ game on Saturday ? It wasn't deflected significantly and they played on.
 

Phil E


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A tree with branches overhanging the pitch is rooted in touch.
This is what I was taught and I see no reasoned argument to overturn that....yet.

[LAWS]Law 17.1.a
The ball is in touch or touch-in-goal when :
The ball or ball-carrier touches the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything beyond.[/LAWS]
 

Ian_Cook


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and didn't the ball hit the wire in the Wales NZ game on Saturday ? It wasn't deflected significantly and they played on.

I don't remember hearing about that. Our commentators made no mention of it that I can recall.
 

crossref


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I don't remember hearing about that. Our commentators made no mention of it that I can recall.

i didn't see it myself, but there was a comment in a facebook group I saw..

I was at the Wales v NZ game...one of Jordi Barrett's conversions hit one of the wires that was supporting the drone like camera above the pitch. It didn't cause the ball to deviate, but is there a law regarding this? What if the ball hit the wire and affected play? ��


The conversion was given - but in Law I think it should have been taken again as the ball was dead (6.9.f).
(I DON'T think the ref should have awarded a scrum!)

If you have taped, perhaps you can find it -- although there were a lot of tries!
 

crossref


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A tree with branches overhanging the pitch is rooted in touch.
This is what I was taught and I see no reasoned argument to overturn that....yet.

I agree with you.

overhanging tress = by definition a pretty low level community game = discuss the possibility in advancer and make a sensible decision on the pitch .

touch seems sensible.

I don't think 6.9.f really changes this.
 

didds

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Safety
Enjoyment (nee Equitable)
Law

innit ?
 

crossref


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Safety
Enjoyment (nee Equitable)
Law

innit ?

I never see the point of that.

Safety over law? : many many laws are there expressly safety, the first thing to do to be safe is to be within the laws.
Enjoyment over law? : but a major factor that causes players to lose enjoyment and get grumpy is if they feel the law isn't being followed and enforced. The first thing to do to ensure enjoyment is the play within the Law.
 

didds

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Cant say I disagree with that at all CR! I always found it slightly trite a concept at best.
 

Arabcheif

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A tree with branches overhanging the pitch is rooted in touch.
This is what I was taught and I see no reasoned argument to overturn that....yet.

[LAWS]Law 17.1.a
The ball is in touch or touch-in-goal when :
The ball or ball-carrier touches the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything beyond.[/LAWS]


Thing is the ball hasn't touched anything beyond the touchline. Yes the tree is rooted beyond the try line, but the branches aren't. You seem to be deeming that the tree has taken the ball into touch. So we've got in theory a situation where neither team has taken or put the ball into touch. So who gets the resultant throw? I think that the fairest way is to stop the game and the kicking team gets the scrum. Because I don't see anywhere in the Laws that covers this situation. So the general scrum for things not covered in Law seems the right outcome. But I suppose the ultimate outcome is consistency.
 

crossref


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Thing is the ball hasn't touched anything beyond the touchline. Yes the tree is rooted beyond the try line, but the branches aren't. You seem to be deeming that the tree has taken the ball into touch. So we've got in theory a situation where neither team has taken or put the ball into touch. So who gets the resultant throw? I think that the fairest way is to stop the game and the kicking team gets the scrum. Because I don't see anywhere in the Laws that covers this situation. So the general scrum for things not covered in Law seems the right outcome. But I suppose the ultimate outcome is consistency.

i think yo0u agree in advance what will happen
agreeing a lineout is more often going to work better
 

didds

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Thing is the ball hasn't touched anything beyond the touchline. Yes the tree is rooted beyond the try line, but the branches aren't. You seem to be deeming that the tree has taken the ball into touch.

player kicks along tramlines, circa 1m from touch. the ball will not enter touch, just fly parallel to it.

1) a spectator rushes to the touchline, reaches into the field of play and makes contact with the ball.
2) an errant touch judge leaves his flag arm in field and the ball hits his arm
3) a player with one foot in touch that reaches for the ball and touches it (not a knock on, offside etc)

not picking, but curious.

didds


didds
 

OB..


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I always objected to replacing Equity with Enjoyment. I challenged it and was told that most people did not understand Equity. I said it is just the legal term for fairness, but it cut no ice.
 

Dickie E


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6.9.f tells you when the when the ball hits an overhead object the ball is dead.
If that object is a tree, and the ball was going out anyway, then a lineout is also within the Law, and would seem to me the best one.

but what if the ball isn't "going out anyway"? What are you going to do then? And if you do decide that a lineout is the correct restart, and if the kick is in general play outside 22, where will the lineout be?
 

crossref


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but what if the ball isn't "going out anyway"? What are you going to do then? And if you do decide that a lineout is the correct restart, and if the kick is in general play outside 22, where will the lineout be?

We are talking specific about a tree, rright?
So it's a community level game on a rubbish pitch
And it's not a surprise tree, appearing from nowhere

I think a sensible thing would be to agree in advance what would happen if ball hits tree.

My proposal would be that counts as touch. Gain in ground as per normal laws

If the two captains had an alternative plan they both preferred, then go with that

What would you say to that if you were one of the captains?

I think, as a ref, you'd want it predetermined not to have to make a decision when it happened
 

Dickie E


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We are talking specific about a tree, rright?
So it's a community level game on a rubbish pitch
And it's not a surprise tree, appearing from nowhere

I think a sensible thing would be to agree in advance what would happen if ball hits tree.

My proposal would be that counts as touch. Gain in ground as per normal laws

If the two captains had an alternative plan they both preferred, then go with that

What would you say to that if you were one of the captains?

I think, as a ref, you'd want it predetermined not to have to make a decision when it happened

If I was one of the captains I'd be OK with ball in touch, but I'd be against the "gain in ground" consideration ie I'd want the LoT to be in line with where the ball hit the branch irrespective of where the ball was kicked.

But totally agree that predetermination would be important.
 

Balones

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If the local ‘rules’ are explained to both sides (and the ref though I would say he doesn’t have to accept them) before the game then go with them regardless of what anyone else says.
No local ‘rules’ then it’s a referee call (scrum or touch) so go with the ref call. If she/he decides it is fair to have a scrum or lineout then go with that. At the top end of the game the referees regard it as a ‘referee call’, which could include play on. Players may feel aggrieved by the decision but in our game we should or have to accept the ‘call’. That way we can account for birds, trees, model planes, kites etc etc.
 

SimonSmith


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do you draw the line anywhere with 'local rules'? "Ref, we don't have pads for the posts so we have a local rule that we won't run near them". "Ref, it's really wet & windy today. We've agreed that knock ons should only be blown if they're really obvious".

There are prerequisites we can't avoid.
We have unlimited replacements here and a mandated water break, because rugby in the NT in summer is brutal.
 

crossref


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. At the top end of the game the referees regard it as a ‘referee call’, which could include play on. Players may feel aggrieved by the decision but in our game we should or have to accept the ‘call’. That way we can account for birds, trees, model planes, kites etc etc.

Wow, where at the top end the game do we have a pitch with an overhanging tree????
(Somewhere in NZ presumably :wink:)
 
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