[Law] Ball kicked hits overhanging tree branch and falls back onto pitch

Balones

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Wow, where at the top end the game do we have a pitch with an overhanging tree????
(Somewhere in NZ presumably :wink:)
I must admit I was thinking more of birds, model planes and kites rather than vegetation.:) But then on a windy day the leaves might be blown onto a pitch and a spectator might have his flat cap blown off just as the winger is chip-kicking his opposite number.:)
 

crossref


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I must admit I was thinking more of birds, model planes and kites rather than vegetation.:) But then on a windy day the leaves might be blown onto a pitch and a spectator might have his flat cap blown off just as the winger is chip-kicking his opposite number.:)

perhaps you weren't replying to my post :)
We are talking specific about a tree, rright?
So it's a community level game on a rubbish pitch
And it's not a surprise tree, appearing from nowhere

Of course yes, birds, planes, drones etc are all very different and should not be predetermined.

Often this sort of collisions might be of no substance, and we would play on. ( 6.9.f foolishly says we can't, but perhaps should be ignored.)

If the ball drops from the sky, yes it's a ref's call.
- Sometimes a scrum will be good.
- Sometimes (eg if it was a conversion kick) a scrum would be crazy (it would be take it again)
- Sometimes a lineout will be right
 

Rich_NL

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I never see the point of that.

Safety over law? : many many laws are there expressly safety, the first thing to do to be safe is to be within the laws.
Enjoyment over law? : but a major factor that causes players to lose enjoyment and get grumpy is if they feel the law isn't being followed and enforced. The first thing to do to ensure enjoyment is the play within the Law.

Safety over law: you can and should blow up for concerns of safety without waiting for a law to be broken, or even if it goes against the lawbook. Being within the laws should be the minimal requirement for safety, some games and situations require more caution - this takes precedence over the laws.

Equity/enjoyment over law: Yes, enjoyment usually arises from a fair application of the law. So you apply the law fairly to maximise enjoyment, and if there's a conflict you are guided by the latter. Rather than "this situation is patently unfair/will ruin the game, but it's what it says in the lawbook". There are examples enough in here of people saying "I think technically it's probably X, but that's a ridiculous outcome and I could sell Y".

It seems pointless if you are an experienced ref, but think about reversing it and prioritising law over the other two.
 

crossref


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Safety over law: you can and should blow up for concerns of safety without waiting for a law to be broken, or even if it goes against the lawbook. Being within the laws should be the minimal requirement for safety, some games and situations require more caution - this takes precedence over the laws.

Equity/enjoyment over law: Yes, enjoyment usually arises from a fair application of the law. So you apply the law fairly to maximise enjoyment, and if there's a conflict you are guided by the latter. Rather than "this situation is patently unfair/will ruin the game, but it's what it says in the lawbook". There are examples enough in here of people saying "I think technically it's probably X, but that's a ridiculous outcome and I could sell Y".

It seems pointless if you are an experienced ref, but think about reversing it and prioritising law over the other two.

Safety - I disagree quite strongly !

I don't like the way this maxim downplays the importance of the Law.
In my experience the refs that pay little attention to the Laws, and the changes in the Laws are the unsafest, as they fail to keep themselves up to date on new safety-inspired laws.

I could give you a dozen examples where following the laws is vital to safety.
I can't think of any example of where it's important to disregard a Law - can you ?

Enjoyment

Perhaps we are more on the same page. I would say that 98% of the time enjoyment comes from applying the laws fairly and accurately, and with a good eye for materiality.

Yes, there are some strange scenarios -- like balls hitting dogs or drones -- where the Law would say one thing, but a different decision is better. In those cases I do agree, the best decision is often the one that all 30 players are expecting.

But I don't think these scenarios happen that often

What I don't like about the maxim though, is that it seem to give a referee a license to overrule or ignore Laws that they don't like, on the grounds it is unfair. We see that on these forums from time time, and the response is : you can't make up the law.
 

OB..


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[...]
Enjoyment

Perhaps we are more on the same page. I would say that 98% of the time enjoyment comes from applying the laws fairly and accurately, and with a good eye for materiality.[...]
.
That is exactly why Equity was a better choice of word. For those who argue that few people understand the concept - just explain it to them: "Equity was a concept brought into law courts to cover cases where a strict interpretation would be clearly unfair".
 

Rich_NL

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In my experience the refs that pay little attention to the Laws, and the changes in the Laws are the unsafest, as they fail to keep themselves up to date on new safety-inspired laws.

Absolutely agree! But they're not prioritising safety over law, they're ignorant of the law. That's different.

I could give you a dozen examples where following the laws is vital to safety.
I can't think of any example of where it's important to disregard a Law - can you ?

Law 19.1 gives the location of a scrum restart as the point closest to infringement. Whether there's a puddle there, or it's directly in front of a goalpost in the dominant team's favour.

6.8.h covers most eventualities, in the sense that it enshrines safety as a consideration beyond what's simply written in the law book. I was going to say removing a concussed player who refuses to go, but I see that's in there now! :)

As for enjoyment, the ref who blows every line out "not straight" in an U14 development match (or a L12 social rugby event) may be legally correct, but doesn't improve the game for the other 30 on the pitch...

I think we agree, really - it's more that I see it as enjoining the referee not to overrule safety or equity with legalistic rigidity (I know of a couple who have demonstrated that tendency, sadly). And not to overrule safety for the sake of enjoyment!
 
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