Ball stripped or tackle made?

Locke


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Real scenario I had in a game earlier this season.

Red is in possession. Red ball carrier takes it into contact. Blue player gets an arm between the ball and the ball carrier and both players are trying to wrest the ball from the other as they go to ground. (To be clear, no one else has bound on, there is no maul consideration.)

Red ball carrier and blue would-be-tackler go to ground with some force and sort of “bounce” apart as they hit the ground. The ball is now in the blue player’s hands and red is not in contact with blue or the ball. Blue immediately gets to his feet and starts running with the ball.

PK to red for blue tackler not releasing? or play on?

My decision on the day:
A couple red players shouted that blue “never released”.
I yelled “play on!”, based on the perception that if the blue player came away with it when they hit the ground, he had essentially won possession or stolen “enough” possession of it before they hit the ground.


Let me know if you think I got it right or wrong.
 
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crossref


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from your description I thought it wasn't a tackle, so play on
 

Decorily

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I'm thinking probably easier (possibly more accurate ) to penalise for no release.
 

Decorily

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Probably no right or wrong answer here.....be decisive and sell your decision!
 

Dickie E


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I'm more interested how you made your decision on the day go all grey & blurry 🤔
 

Volun-selected


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I think you were ok. If they grabbed the ball and not the player - is it a tackle? Definition has a tackle is a method of holding the ball carrier, not the ball.

Since they then bounced apart, they just need to get up ASAP and get on with it - which they did.
 

Stu10


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If the ball was ripped by blue when blue was on the ground then penalty against blue. If it all happened that fast and you are not sure if the ball was ripped while falling then I would most likely play on. However, I think you could go with either and sell it.
 

Locke


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I'm more interested how you made your decision on the day go all grey & blurry 🤔
Ha, (posting from iOS) under the various formatting options there’s an icon that looks like a mask that brings up html brackets called “spoiler”.
 

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Locke


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My first thought is to shout "play on, no tackle." It's on Red to play to the whistle.
Adding “no tackle” to my “play on” would have improved it. Good call.
 

Locke


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I think you were ok. If they grabbed the ball and not the player - is it a tackle? Definition has a tackle is a method of holding the ball carrier, not the ball.

Since they then bounced apart, they just need to get up ASAP and get on with it - which they did.
This is an interesting point. I guess you could argue the defender was “holding” the ball carrier’s arm? Ha, kind of a weak application of the tackle definition I think.
If the two players hadn’t “bounced” apart and instead went down side by side and both still holding the ball, I would have called for the “tackler” to release and allowed the ball carrier to place it back. The way it played out though, it looked/felt like a legitimate strip to me. The going to ground and the ball ending up in blue’s hands was all one motion, if that makes sense. There was no additional “yanking” the ball from the red ball carrier after they hit the ground.
 

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I guess you could argue the defender was “holding” the ball carrier’s arm? Ha, kind of a weak application of the tackle definition I think.
A weak application indeed......but we accept a 'weak' application of the tackle definition regularly.
Ball carrier intentionally drops and gets a knee to ground and we immediately enforce tackle laws. Clearly this scenario does not meet the criteria of a tackle as defined/described.
 

Stu10


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Adding “no tackle” to my “play on” would have improved it. Good call.
I'd be more inclined to call "good rip" or "fair turnover" rather than "no tackle".

As part of my self-reflection/improvement, I have a related scenario that I've been considering and have decided to change how I referee (unless you lot persuade me otherwise).

In a similar scenario to OP I would typically call "tackler release", or when the tackler is still on feet but the ball carrier has got a knee down... my difficulty comes when the strip is made simultaneously to me calling "tackle, release", and in these instances I've played on and given the benefit of the doubt to the tackler making the rip because he has not had time to process my simultaneous communication... however, on reflection, it is not my instruction that determines the need for the tackler to release but the fact that the tackle is complete... when I call "release" the ball carrier already has his knee down, so any rip after this point is illegal irrelevant of whether I've said "tackler release", so in the future I am going to penalise... thoughts?
 

didds

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PK to red for blue tackler not releasing? or play on?
doesnt seem to me to be a tackle. red wasn't "held and brought to ground" - blue wasnt holding red, but the ball.

??
 

Stu10


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doesnt seem to me to be a tackle. red wasn't "held and brought to ground" - blue wasnt holding red, but the ball.

??
Let's be honest, if this played out with blue remaining on feet over the top of red holding the ball on the floor, would we expect to see a clear release by blue before making the rip/jackal (law 14.8.a), or would you decide blue was only holding the ball, no tackle, and therefore no need for blue to release? What would most players expect the outcome to be here?
 

didds

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fair points well made Stu, as ever.

then basically any two players in any sort of contact that gets a knee to a floor is a tackle, end of.
In which case in the OOP PK against Blue - if only becasue had blue completed the strip 2 inches form the ground prior to red's knee actually touching the ground, it wasnt C&O
 

Stu10


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In the OP you could equally go either way IMHO... I think this is a good example of how did it look/feel in the moment and then sell it with confidence.
 

crossref


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Some good points above, especially on Comms

Option 1 "play on, stripped, no tackle"
Option 2 "peep, tackler not releasing"

Concise, just a few syllables
 

Dickie E


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I'm of the view that the Red player is in, and remains in, possession of the ball until he clearly isn't. So "tackler not releasing" penalty for mine.
 
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