Bath Vs Wasps 8.1.21

oldman


Referees in England
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
291
Post Likes
38
Have just watched a recording of last nights game (Friday). At 15.30 (game time) Wasps have an attacking line-out 5Mts out, ball is thrown in, maul formed, and while the referee, Matt Carley, is keeping the defence back two attackers No's 12 and 14 join the maul. Additional weight helps the maul move toward the try line. Maul collapsed, penalty try given and Bath player sent to bin.
My question concerns the two backs joining the maul, their addition weight/power must have been instrumental in the forward motion Wasps gained, but their joining was illegal. this lead to an incorrect penalty try and yellow card,
Comments from those involved at higher levels of the game appreciated.
 
Last edited:

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,621
Post Likes
448
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Can you post link to video.
You say ref was"keeping the defence back"... are you sure he was keeping the back line back or was he signalling to the hindmost foot of the maul?
 

Ciaran Trainor


Referees in England
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
2,870
Post Likes
383
Location
Walney Island
Current Referee grade:
Level 7
Don’t need to see the video, happens regularly at the top level and always ignored
 

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,621
Post Likes
448
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Don’t need to see the video, happens regularly at the top level and always ignored

Great .....that's sorted so.
No need for any further dialogue or opinions! !
Well done.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,824
Post Likes
3,159
there used to be a clear convention : ref holds his arm up vertically until the lineout is over. It was a god convention, clear and the raised arm visible to all players.

I've noticed that elite refs don't do that so much, either giving no signal at all or sometimes holding both arms out horizontally, which is not so easy to see.
 

Skids


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
326
Post Likes
9
Current Referee grade:
Level 10
MC seemed to battle with encroaching back lines all evening, as did several other refs over the weekend.

Aren't the Asst Refs supposed to help with that?
 

Flish


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
1,544
Post Likes
358
Location
Durham
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
there used to be a clear convention : ref holds his arm up vertically until the lineout is over. It was a god convention, clear and the raised arm visible to all players.

I've noticed that elite refs don't do that so much, either giving no signal at all or sometimes holding both arms out horizontally, which is not so easy to see.

I’ve actually been given guidance by an assessor not to do this, ie only put an arm up if a Maul forms, which I can understand, but my thought was that a positive indication by me that’s consistent helps everyone, maul or not (eg inside 5, gone 15 etc) and potentially helps my thought processes.

This got revisited when I reffed a few games under the Covid variations and no mauls, but found back lines coming up fast from line outs and closing the space changed the game a lot so I started raising my arm again so they knew - seemed to work, so might ignore the assessor :)
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,152
Post Likes
1,842
I've noticed that elite refs don't do that so much, either giving no signal at all or sometimes holding both arms out horizontally, which is not so easy to see.


To me the ghorizontal arms thing is to indicate a back-foot-of-the-maul/ruck ...
didds
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
there used to be a clear convention : ref holds his arm up vertically until the lineout is over. It was a god convention, clear and the raised arm visible to all players.
[...]
I am not sure it had that imprimatur, but it was certainly what I advised. However I did not insist if the ref made things clear anyway.
 

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,621
Post Likes
448
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
To me the ghorizontal arms thing is to indicate a back-foot-of-the-maul/ruck ...
didds

There are two different 'horizontal arms things'.....it depends on the angle /position of the referee ie if the ref is facing the touchline and the horizontal arms are pointing towards both backlines then it is being used to signal a '10m hold' whereas obviously if the ref is facing a defensive line at a maul the horizontal arms are meant to signal 'stay on hindmost '.

Video of the OP scenario could clarify.
 

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,479
Post Likes
525
I've watched the incident.
This was not a case of something being allowed but rather a case of of something being missed. Throughout the game Matt Carley had been fastidious about holding back the defensive side at a lineout. He used one horizontal arm to hold them back and some verbal communication. He didn't pay particular attention to the attacking side. Was this the role of the AR's? Who knows, we were not at the pre-match briefing.
At the particular incident in question the referee was not facing the attacking side but was looking towards the defending side who had started to creep up immediately the maul was formed. He had his back to the attacking side so missed the extra players joining. The AR is seen to be very focused on the blind side of the maul/narrow side. He also was partially turned away from the attacking side so at best might have seen some advancement in peripheral vision. Should it have been a call from the far side AR? Certainly an incident that should have been raised during debrief.

When the maul was called over only one extra player had arrived. The second arrived a second or two afterward but had crept up offside before then.
 

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,479
Post Likes
525
Having now watched the whole match I wouldn't mind betting that something was said/discussed at half time because there was much more attention paid to both sides in the second half. Bath could feel slightly aggrieved that they didn't get the same generosity as Wasps at 1.22.00 approx when Bath had a 5M lineout.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,824
Post Likes
3,159
There are two different 'horizontal arms things'.....it depends on the angle /position of the referee ie if the ref is facing the touchline and the horizontal arms are pointing towards both backlines then it is being used to signal a '10m hold' whereas obviously if the ref is facing a defensive line at a maul the horizontal arms are meant to signal 'stay on hindmost '.

Video of the OP scenario could clarify.

yes.
for the lineout, I prefer the arm up. I wonder why it has gone out of fashion at elite levels..
 

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,479
Post Likes
525
yes.
for the lineout, I prefer the arm up. I wonder why it has gone out of fashion at elite levels..

Matt Carly seems to like both methods. Most of the time it was arms out but on at least one occasion it was arm up.
It may well be because at the higher levels with appointed ARs the referee invariably stands in midfield at lineouts but at the lower end they stand quite often at the front. Arms out at the front would not be seen. Arms out to the side can control both sides or one side if the ref wants to be more specific. One arm up doesn’t have the specificity if required. Also moving with an arm up in the air can look a little ungainly.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,824
Post Likes
3,159
Matt Carly seems to like both methods. Most of the time it was arms out but on at least one occasion it was arm up.
It may well be because at the higher levels with appointed ARs the referee invariably stands in midfield at lineouts but at the lower end they stand quite often at the front. Arms out at the front would not be seen. Arms out to the side can control both sides or one side if the ref wants to be more specific. One arm up doesn’t have the specificity if required. Also moving with an arm up in the air can look a little ungainly.

you wouldn't want to put one arm out, though, as that looks like advantage.

this is one that would be worth formalising into the lawbook I reckon - a signal for lineout over.

They could also 'officialise' the commonly used signals for
- play on
- no try
- missed kick
 

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,479
Post Likes
525
Point with finger to stay back and flat hand for advantage? Eye tests for all players?:)
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,152
Post Likes
1,842
There are two different 'horizontal arms things'.....it depends on the angle /position of the referee ie if the ref is facing the touchline and the horizontal arms are pointing towards both backlines then it is being used to signal a '10m hold' whereas obviously if the ref is facing a defensive line at a maul the horizontal arms are meant to signal 'stay on hindmost '.

Video of the OP scenario could clarify.


like.

makes sense - tx ... THIS is why I come here to learn :)
 

Ciaran Trainor


Referees in England
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
2,870
Post Likes
383
Location
Walney Island
Current Referee grade:
Level 7
I think the key thing here is, there is no official signal for when the line out is over.
Convention to me was always arm straight up and comes down when the ref decides you have moved off the line of touch.
That is clear to players, crowd and ARs however it is not a recognised official signal.
I think it should be, then there would be no dispute.
At top level ARs can clearly see and communicate to the ref that attack or defence have encroached.
Problem solved .
While I'm at it, there appears to be no official signal for the ref to indicate an attempt at a penalty goal has been selected.
Always used to be two arms outstretched then move indicating towards the posts.
Again clear to crowd/players/ARs . Everyone used to do it until St. Nigel invented the phrase "shot" and used his one finger shuffle to point .
The two arm signal should become official.
 

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,479
Post Likes
525
I must admit that in this game the players tended to ignore the signals anyway. The only way Matt could get them to comply was by verbally telling them, and on several occasions was seen/heard to send them back after the players had almost joined the maul. They were still offside when he called the maul over and hadn’t returned to an offside position.
The problem is that the officials are very much focused on the formation and dynamics of the maul and encroachment tends to be a secondary aspect of the refereeing at that point. Most of the time it is immaterial- and then we have a penalty try, half-time talk and an inconsistency between halves.
 
Top