[Tackle] Bloody Creepers!!

[Ian_Cook]

I haven't posted here for a while, but the Super Rugby season has just started; we are into round four next week. I have been seeing something happening that is beginning to really annoy me, so time to vent!

I am talking about "creepers", tackled players that crawl or creep forward, roll over forward (sometimes twice or more) or jump forward to a new position, and all after going to ground with the ball. I am sure this action is illegal

[LAWS]Law 14: Tackle
7. Tackled players must immediately:
a. Make the ball available so that play can continue by releasing, passing or pushing
the ball in any direction except forward. They may place the ball in any direction.
b. Move away from the ball or get up.
c. Ensure that they do not lie on, over or near the ball to prevent opposition players
from gaining possession of it.[/LAWS]

I see nothing in there about players being able to do anything other than release, pass, push or place the ball, which they must do immediately. If they creep, roll or jump forward, that is the action they have done immediately, which means they have not immediately done any of the allowed actions. PK for not releasing IMO.

I am also sure it is being coached, and I think I know why

1. Players are able to gain metres of ground that they were unable to gain before they were tackled. In a game of narrow margins, the ground they are gaining by rolling forward can be the difference between making or not making the advantage line.

2. In order for an arriving player to turn over the ball by taking it from the tackled player, the arriving player has to get his timing almost perfect. By rolling into the arriving player's legs. not only does the tackled player bugger up the arriving player's timing, but there is also a chance they will bump the legs of the arriving player, causing him to lose balance, and have to put a hand down to maintain it, thereby eliminating that arriving player as a turnover threat.

I was wondering if any of you active referees have seen this at grass roots. I think this technique needs to be stopped.

 

[crossref]

Definitely agree, oddly at grassroots I think I saw more of this last season than this one.
At pro level rugby it's definitely a thing

In England Scotland we saw Courtney Lawes roll too far, and get himself isolated and giving away a PK ..

 

[didds]

Pisses me off too Iain.

I've yet to see it but somebody somewhere muddy have rolled to score in this manner.

Didds

 

[ChuckieB]

I have noted something of this in recent weeks but would hesitate to suggest it is a trend.

just wondering if it is a by-product of tactics where fewer players are committing themselves to the breakdown.

If you can gain a few more feet because you have just the tackler on you then, you are likely to have your own team moving with the momentum and are more likely to retain the ball?

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I noticed in my last game however remarkably it stopped after one serial roller gave away a PK for not releasing. :biggrin:

 

[Flish]

I've certainly heard players discussing it, if not implementing, at my level, mostly to buy them more time for their support players to get in and clear out as it disrupts the jackler

 

[didds]

Ftr I've seen this happening for at least two years at grass roots, from youth upwards. In some cases it's been coached, in others it's the players learning it from TV rugby.

Didds

 

[Phil E]

Yes I see it at Level 8 here.
I think they mainly do it because if they are rolling the jackler can't get a grip on the ball, so it buys them time for support to arrive.

I warn once and then PK.

I allow them to roll once to present the ball back if they are facing the wrong way (so a half roll really), but more than that is "failing to release".

 

[Rich_NL]

I heard it coached last season. The coach said "you can do this, they'll never blow for it." I said "Oh really?"

 

[didds]

Yes I see it at Level 8 here.
I think they mainly do it because if they are rolling the jackler can't get a grip on the ball, so it buys them time for support to arrive.

I warn once and then PK.

I allow them to roll once to present the ball back if they are facing the wrong way (so a half roll really), but more than that is "failing to release".

For me - they need better bloody contact skills.

I'm not saying Phil's approach is wrong.

didds

 

[SimonSmith]

Yes I see it at Level 8 here.
I think they mainly do it because if they are rolling the jackler can't get a grip on the ball, so it buys them time for support to arrive.

I warn once and then PK.

I allow them to roll once to present the ball back if they are facing the wrong way (so a half roll really), but more than that is "failing to release".

Just for discussion:
I, as a tackler, have exercised great skill in making a dominant offensive tackle and turning the ball carrier to my side to make turnover ball easier. Why are you letting him get a bounce and nullifying my skill?

 

[didds]

Totally agree with Simon.

didds

 

[Phil E]

Just for discussion:
I, as a tackler, have exercised great skill in making a dominant offensive tackle and turning the ball carrier to my side to make turnover ball easier. Why are you letting him get a bounce and nullifying my skill?

1. Because once you have released him he is allowed to place the ball in any direction, if in doing so his body naturally turns towards the direction he is placing it then I am happy with that. You may have turned him, but your not allowed to then hold him facing that way. If I am on my side facing the wrong way and I swing my arm to place the ball behind me, my body is naturally going to roll with that movement.

2. Convention

 

[thepercy]

1. Because once you have released him he is allowed to place the ball in any direction, if in doing so his body naturally turns towards the direction he is placing it then I am happy with that. You may have turned him, but your not allowed to then hold him facing that way. If I am on my side facing the wrong way and I swing my arm to place the ball behind me, my body is naturally going to roll with that movement.

2. Convention

Are you letting the BC roll with the ball under their body? Or rolling with the ball exposed? Either way?

 

[didds]

1. Because once you have released him he is allowed to place the ball in any direction, if in doing so his body naturally turns towards the direction he is placing it then I am happy with that. You may have turned him, but your not allowed to then hold him facing that way. If I am on my side facing the wrong way and I swing my arm to place the ball behind me, my body is naturally going to roll with that movement.

But that isn't what happens is it?

What happens is

* player ends up wrong way round.
* hold ball close to body
* rolls body until facing the right way
* places ball.

what does not happen is

* player ends up wrong way round.
* player places ball
* player rolls towards where the ball is placed

didds

 

[ChrisR]

. . . and this is the crux of the issue. If the player rolls back toward his support to place the ball then I see it as a part of placing. If he's rolling toward the ops line then he's a cheating ******* and we need to rid the game of it.

 

[Pinky]

I agree with Iain about this - there were a few in the recent weeks of the Aviva Premiership. I remember a particularly blatant one at the Rac (Bath's ground) a fee weeks ago.

but I saw one roller getting pinged for rolling too often and denying the jackler so maybe it will be reffed out of the game.

 

[Zebra1922]

I have seen the rolling specifically being coached ( I gave some friendly advice if I was this in a game I would penalise but was completely ignored) and also in games (where I have penalised it). Another item of very questionable legality and I would also argue immorality (deliberately coached law breaking) creeping into the game. Some coaches need to have a good look at themselves, what they are trying to achivee and maybe revisit some of the core values of the game.

 

[didds]

What I perceive occurs is

* elites do it
* watched by more community types
* copy coaches then coach it at grass roots AND/OR
* players do it whether coached or not

Not every player you see doing it has been coached to do it.

Then there is also

* as team A does it
* team B is coached to do it as "everybody else does it and we only miss out on its benefits if we don't"

We've seen the same thing over time occur with stacking and bridging, to the extent the latter at least is now just standard. Then ball carrier sliding (now specifically outlawed). Pillars. etc

didds

 

[Ian_Cook]

Well I'm happy to see this is not just my perception.

Thanks for the replies chaps; keep pinging those cheatin' creepers!