Building a something in open play?

[RugbyFish]

Ball is on the ground in open play. 10 green dives near it and ends up lying in front of the ball. 2 other green players bind onto each other and stand over the ball and green 10. Red players arrive and seem to think it's a ruck situation.

I award a scrum red for accidental obstruction by green but felt pretty clueless.

Can you do this? Does it make a difference that green 10 was lying near the ball?

 

[Guyseep]

I think you got it wrong here. Green 10 is obligated to initially pass, get up with, or release the ball. Green 10 must also move away from the ball after passing it or releasing it. A ruck forms when at least one player from each team are in contact over the ball on the ground. So when red made contact with green, that's a ruck. As long as green 10 is not playing the ball in the ruck, and trying to roll away, I would have played on. Check out law 14 and 16.

 

[Dixie]

I'm not entirely clear as to the actions of Green 10. He's allowed to fall on the ball to secure it - but your description is rather different - he dived to the ground NEAR it, and then just lay on the floor on the Red side of the ball? Without touching it?

If that is the situation, I think you had a very rare beast indeed to deal with - no wonder you felt clueless! You'd doubtless suffered contagion from Green 10!

[LAWS]Definition: Law 14 - The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet. A player must not make the ball unplayable by falling down. Unplayable means that the ball is not immediately available to either team so that play may continue.[/LAWS]

That principle underlies the whole of the "player on the ground, no tackle" Law 14. Specifically, Law 14.1(c)

[LAWS]c) A player without the ball must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents getting possession of it.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

So PK.

However, it he had indeed gathered the ball, then set it back and released as though there had been a tackle, I wouldn't see his continued presence there as any more objectionable as it would be if he had indeed been tackled. If you'd ping him at a tackle, ping him under Law 14. Otherwise, play on.

 

[RugbyFish]

I had another look at law 14 and 16 and still can't work it out.

Green 10 released the ball immediately. It's true he didn't move a lot away, but I felt it would have been harsh to penalize him since it didn't seem to have an impact on the game other than it made the whole thing look more like a tackle/ruck situation which I know it was not.

But assuming green 10 was fine - what about the players binding onto each other and shielding the ball? Can you do that? I'm aware it wasn't a ruck since no red player was bound. Should I have just told red it was still open play and they could have run around the non-ruck and picked up the ball?

 

[RugbyFish]

I'm not entirely clear as to the actions of Green 10. He's allowed to fall on the ball to secure it - but your description is rather different - he dived to the ground NEAR it, and then just lay on the floor on the Red side of the ball? Without touching it?

I think he dived near it and then sort of put a hand on it for a second until he fully released it (not touching it anymore) since his players were standing over him and the ball, thereby shielding it.

If that is the situation, I think you had a very rare beast indeed to deal with - no wonder you felt clueless! You'd doubtless suffered contagion from Green 10!

[LAWS]Definition: Law 14 - The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet. A player must not make the ball unplayable by falling down. Unplayable means that the ball is not immediately available to either team so that play may continue.[/LAWS]

That principle underlies the whole of the "player on the ground, no tackle" Law 14. Specifically, Law 14.1(c)

[LAWS]c) A player without the ball must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents getting possession of it.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

So PK.

However, it he had indeed gathered the ball, then set it back and released as though there had been a tackle, I wouldn't see his continued presence there as any more objectionable as it would be if he had indeed been tackled. If you'd ping him at a tackle, ping him under Law 14. Otherwise, play on.

As I said, penalizing Green 10 didn't feel like the right thing to do - but what about the other players?

 

[Dixie]

But assuming green 10 was fine - what about the players binding onto each other and shielding the ball? Can you do that? I'm aware it wasn't a ruck since no red player was bound. Should I have just told red it was still open play and they could have run around the non-ruck and picked up the ball?

You do see this quite frequently at a tackle. The arriving player(s), instead of making an effort to play the ball, set up above the ball in anticipation of contact (which, if it comes, will set up the ruck).

As long as the pseudo-ruckers are above, and not beyond, the ball, I don't have a problem with this. But if they have gone beyond it and are shielding it from the opposition, they are obstructing, contrary to law 10.1(d)

[LAWS](d) Blocking the ball. A player must not intentionally move or stand in a position that prevents an opponent from playing the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

It's a judgement call. Their coach, on the other hand, is probably incandescent with rage, screaming at them to pick the bloody thing up and run with it!

 

[RugbyFish]

It's a judgement call. Their coach, on the other hand, is probably incandescent with rage, screaming at them to pick the bloody thing up and run with it!

Makes sense - thanks for clearing it up. I felt silly for calling it since no red player would have complained anyway (given they all clearly thought this was a ruck).
Should I have told red that it was open play?

 

[Dixie]

Should I have told red that it was open play?

Another judgement call. For an English ref, I'd warn that to do so is getting perilously close to on-field coaching, but with inexperienced players such as U.14, U.15 it may be appropriate. I expect that a German team may contain less experienced players, so it might be appropriate - but if you start coaching that, where on Earth do you stop? I'd really try to avoid it if possible.

 

[RugbyFish]

Another judgement call. For an English ref, I'd warn that to do so is getting perilously close to on-field coaching, but with inexperienced players such as U.14, U.15 it may be appropriate. I expect that a German team may contain less experienced players, so it might be appropriate - but if you start coaching that, where on Earth do you stop? I'd really try to avoid it if possible.

Upon reflection, I think it was necessary for me to tell them that it was open play not just because the teams were full of inexperienced players but because - how do I put this - teams over here aren't used to very consistent refereeing.

I must admit that I "ref/coached" quite a bit but captains and coaches explicitly asked for it and the reaction was very positive.

 

[Davet]

Red players arrive and seem to think it's a ruck situation.

Well before they bind on then it isn't, they could wander round behind the 2 player and pick the ball up.

If they did treat it as a ruck and actually bound on as if it were, then it becomes one - play on.