Calling for the ball from an opponent - TREDS?

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

In my AR game last weekend.

Black #4 ball carrier carries ball for 10m or so close to my touchline. He has support with him. As he is tackled blue player #13 chasing him calls "yes right" or similar and black offloads to him without looking. Blue #13 sets off in the other direction.

Black #4 is the Captain.

Black #4 sits on the floor looked mightily pissed off. I heard and saw all this.

On reviewing the game footage I heard Black #4 describe the incident to the referee during a break in play. The referee said he didn't hear anything implying (to me) if he had, he would have penalised Blue #13. I didn't hear/notice the conversation between Black#4 and referee at the time and the referee never asked me if I had heard anything.

So is calling for the ball from an opponents worth a sanction? I didn't think so - like it is in Association Football - but now I wonder?

Perhaps

9.27 A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship.

 

[Decorily]

I've seen similar and in fact been caught out like that many years ago.
No issue as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Phil E]

I think I would penalise it at Junior level, but not Senior.

 

[crossref]

is it any different from a dummy runner calling for a pass, to attract the defender towards him ? -- both are shouts with the purpose of tricking the oppo.

I think it's all part of the game .

as a referee : 9.27 should be used very sparingly, and in circumstances where you know that all (or almost all) of the players will agree with you. Otherwise you are just imposing your own particular view of what might be good sportsmanship.

I think this would be a good example of 9.27 (and indeed earned him a booking)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1620020811871686662

 

[DocP]

I have played in games where this has been penalised. A few years back mind.

In fact, I have on 2 occasions, this season had instances of this. Player being tackled and opposition, both times the 9 unsurprisingly, called for the ball. The pass was not made but at the next downtime I did give the 9 a stern warning. One pleaded innocent until in the bar his own team ripped it out of him. The other looked embarrassed and apologised.
Thinking about it, both times were the same team just with 2 different 9s. After the second one I had a bit of a laugh with the captain about it as he also remembered the first.
If the pass had been completed I definitely would have pinged them and awarded a penalty. I don't want that type of thing going on when I'm refereeing as I don't feel it is in the spirit and it will only happen once in a game, award a PK and no one will do it again

 

[crossref]

feel it is in the spirit and it will only happen once in a game, award a PK and no one will do it again

what if they feel it was a completely unjustified PK and - to test you - immediately do it again?
Are you going to YC and then, when they do it a third time RC ? Would the RC stick? Or would you look foolish?

(this is the problem with making your own 9.27 judgements. Are you actually putting yourself out on a limb?)

 

[DocP]

Good point, I'd definitely do another PK and then warn. Third time YC. If it got to RC then so be it but don't think they would get much of a ban from the higher ups but that would be for them to decided.
There is enough chatter from players appealing at every breakdown, if you open this pandora's box then have both sets of players constantly shouting for the ball, not a picture that I want to see, tempers would flare and the match could become a right mess. The game should be played in the right spirit for me and this falls outside that.

 

[Harry]

I was conned like this many years ago, I was playing for the opposition and one of my team called for the ball.

guess who got dick of the day?

 

[Zebra1922]

what if they feel it was a completely unjustified PK and - to test you - immediately do it again?
Are you going to YC and then, when they do it a third time RC ? Would the RC stick? Or would you look foolish?

(this is the problem with making your own 9.27 judgements. Are you actually putting yourself out on a limb?)

Why would you look foolish? If you treat this as unsportsmanlike, and the team repeat offends, you move up the sanction tree as you have suggested. It’s not your fault the players choose to continue to offend.

 

[crossref]

Why would you look foolish? If you treat this as unsportsmanlike, and the team repeat offends, you move up the sanction tree as you have suggested. It’s not your fault the players choose to continue to offend.

I think it would be an odd RC .. I don't even agree that it's unsportsmanlike, how is it any different from a dummy runner shouting "my ball"

 

[chbg]

I think it would be an odd RC .. I don't even agree that it's unsportsmanlike, how is it any different from a dummy runner shouting "my ball"

Because that happens in front the opposition and so they can use their sight to reinforce or discriminate other cues - and it rarely works! If the caller gets clattered because they did deceive the opposition, then that's their fault! Calling from behind the ball-carrier, pretending to be a support player is in a different place.

I also consider shouting at opposition's line-outs to disrupt their calls unsportsmanlike.

"Unsportsmanlike" = not within the Laws (not the same as outside) and I wouldn't like it done to my team, so wouldn't do it to other teams.

 

[crossref]

Because that happens in front the opposition and so they can use their sight to reinforce or discriminate other cues - and it rarely works! If the caller gets clattered because they did deceive the opposition, then that's their fault! Calling from behind the ball-carrier, pretending to be a support player is in a different place.

I also consider shouting at opposition's line-outs to disrupt their calls unsportsmanlike.

"Unsportsmanlike" = not within the Laws (not the same as outside) and I wouldn't like it done to my team, so wouldn't do it to other teams.

I wouldn't do it either, but neither would I PK it, ( let alone escalate into cards).
Would you PK it ?

 

[DocP]

I think it would be an odd RC .. I don't even agree that it's unsportsmanlike, how is it any different from a dummy runner shouting "my ball"

Not sure if it makes a difference, but it does in my head, it's not a red though is it. It is 2 yellows that become a red. Basically for being a prat. If you got a yellow once you have to be pretty silly to do the same thing again know you will get another yellow and then off for the rest of the match.

 

[Locke]

I don’t think I would penalize this but must agree that if a player receives a second YC and is sent off for this same offense, it is surely the player that is the fool. The referee has made their interpretation of the situation quite clear and it is incredibly easy for the player to comply.

 

[SimonSmith]

We were always told “look before you pass”.

 

[crossref]

Not sure if it makes a difference, but it does in my head, it's not a red though is it. It is 2 yellows that become a red. Basically for being a prat. If you got a yellow once you have to be pretty silly to do the same thing again know you will get another yellow and then off for the rest of the match.

If something escalated like that no one looks clever, not the player but not the ref either

It's like the ref who walks a team back 40m. He may be "right" but he's also not

Or Raynal with his timewasting FK against Australia. Neither of them came out well

 

[Rich_NL]

The 40m thing is because you can escalate, not because you're afraid to escalate on a position you've made clear. If one indicates "don't do X or there will be consequences", one sends a shockingly weak message to players on both sides if the consequences don't come.

If a player got a YC for a deliberate offence, and came back on and did the same again, I can't fathom why anyone would blame the ref (or think they weren't being clever) for giving the second yellow.

Regarding the OP question, I think it's difficult - it's on the border of unsportsmanlike to me, and both times I've seen it unpunished it's led fairly swiftly and clearly to player escalation and deterioration in the atmosphere. I think at grassroots it's an acceptable penalty to give... but it's a tough call.

 

[crossref]

If a player got a YC for a deliberate offence, and came back on and did the same again, I can't fathom why anyone would blame the ref (or think they weren't being clever) for giving the second yellow.

i just have a hunch that if you gave a PK, then YC, then a second YC (=RC) all for someone shouting 'on your right' when you'd told them not to ...
then someone senior in your society might be asking whether you could have handled better. Especially as shouting 'on your right' is a known ploy, and it's not even against the Laws.

 

[Rich_NL]

i just have a hunch that if you gave a PK, then YC, then a second YC (=RC) all for someone shouting 'on your right' when you'd told them not to ...
then someone senior in your society might be asking whether you could have handled better. Especially as shouting 'on your right' is a known ploy, and it's not even against the Laws.

That depends on whether or not it's considered unsportsmanlike in rugby, though, doesn't it? Otherwise you shouldn't penalise any foul play in case they do it again and you have to escalate.

 

[crossref]

That depends on whether or not it's considered unsportsmanlike in rugby, though, doesn't it?

exactly so.
and for this one, opinions are split. Lots of people think it's an acceptable ploy. More fool the passer.

smearing dog poo on your opponent : I am confident every player on the pitch will agree with me when I sanction that for 9.27 (straight RC I would say)

shouting 'on your right' not so much