Calling for the ball from an opponent - TREDS?

[Stu10]

I think it would be an odd RC .. I don't even agree that it's unsportsmanlike, how is it any different from a dummy runner shouting "my ball"

I think there is a difference between misleading by creativity in the face of defenders (i.e. dummy runners), versus misleading by deception from behind the ball carrier (i.e. calling for pass).

 

[crossref]

I think there is a difference between misleading by creativity in the face of defenders (i.e. dummy runners), versus misleading by deception from behind the ball carrier (i.e. calling for pass).

that's quite a subtle differnce. it's OK to shout deceptive calls .. as long as the oppo can see you?

 

[Locke]

I feel very conflicted about whether it’s bad sportsmanship or not. To crossref’s point, none of us feel that dummy runners are unsportsmanlike. What about dummy passes? Of course not. What makes this particular act of subterfuge different that could put it across the line into “unsportsmanlike” territory? It feels different but I can’t form a coherent message on why. I don’t have a solid reason to penalize it and would have to let it go, but I wouldn’t be happy about it.

 

[Rich_NL]

It's obtaining the ball without contesting for it, by deceit or trickery rather than sporting challenge.

A dummy runner isn't preventing contest - if they do, we blow up for obstruction. A feint is a part of a physical contest.

There's no law against a player pulling on an opposition jersey, waiting for a pass and then turning and sprinting for a try, is there? That's far closer a comparison than a feint or a dummy runner.

 

[crossref]

It's obtaining the ball without contesting for it, by deceit or trickery rather than sporting challenge.

what about interceptions?

anyway deceipt and trickery are big part of rugby - especially for a smaller team (It's one reason why I like it!)

i don't see why only the ball carrying team are allowed deceit and trickery - why not also the defenders?

 

[Rich_NL]

Intercepting a ball is a physical skill. The contest of the ball is in the air; the passer is not misled into making the pass.

Why is only side allowed to hand off? Why does only one side have to be behind the ball carrier? It's not a symmetrical sport, by design. The defenders have to challenge for the ball.

I think you're taking a concept, deceit, and stretching it to cover any sort of misdirection, including physical skills like a dummy or a feint, and then saying "well if that's allowed then anything goes!" It's wordplay.

If you're a fan of deceit and trickery, you'd approve if you turned up for a match and the home coach said he'd lied to the other team about the match being called off due to an unsafe ground, so that he could claim they had defaulted by not turning up? Smart thinking, that man.

Fundamentally, without explicit guidance from WR, it comes down to a gut feeling, informed by local culture and experience. What may be perfectly normal in France may be outrageous in England, and vice versa... I feel calling for the ball is unsporting in the rugby culture I grew up playing (and now reffing).

 

[crossref]

i am not saying anything goes though -- I am just saying that opinion is divided about calling for the ball -- so it would be unwise to PK it using 9.27
9.27 is best left for for more serious things, that are unequivocally unsportsmanlike

Here's some examples from the discipline table

 

[SimonSmith]

My rough and ready rule of thumb is:

If the opposition player is at serious of getting punched, it’s likely unsporting.

If the passer of the ball is going to get voted “dick of the day” by his own teammates, play on.

 

[Volun-selected]

Ok, mea culpa - back in my school days before we had any meaningful concussion protocol (never helped that the PE Teacher always showed 3 fingers when asking), if the ball carrier got their bell rung, got up and recovered the ball a quick yell of “you’re going the wrong way” often caused mayhem…

I apologize.

Quick question for @Lee Lifeson-Peart - what is TREDs in the thread title?

 

[DocP]

RFU Core values
T - Teamwork
R - Respect
E - Enjoyment
D - Discipline
S - Sportsmanship

 

[DocP]

It is spun out at every RFU course going no matter what it is.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Ok, mea culpa - back in my school days before we had any meaningful concussion protocol (never helped that the PE Teacher always showed 3 fingers when asking), if the ball carrier got their bell rung, got up and recovered the ball a quick yell of “you’re going the wrong way” often caused mayhem…

I apologize.

Quick question for @Lee Lifeson-Peart - what is TREDs in the thread title?

Apologies for my RFUcentric title. DocP has explained. Thank you DocP

 

[Volun-selected]

Apologies for my RFUcentric title. DocP has explained. Thank you DocP

No problem - USA Rugby has something similar but it doesn’t make an easy to use acronym.

 

[Stu10]

It's obtaining the ball without contesting for it, by deceit or trickery rather than sporting challenge.

A dummy runner isn't preventing contest - if they do, we blow up for obstruction. A feint is a part of a physical contest.

There's no law against a player pulling on an opposition jersey, waiting for a pass and then turning and sprinting for a try, is there? That's far closer a comparison than a feint or a dummy runner.

I think Rich raises a great point... dummy runners and dummy passes do not directly result in the opposition gaining possession of the ball, and the defender can see the ball and must make a decision whether to tackle the ball carrier or cover a possible receiver.

That is very different to an unsighted defender calling for the ball to be passed to them by "impersonating" a team mate.

 

[crossref]

I think Rich raises a great point... dummy runners and dummy passes do not directly result in the opposition gaining possession of the ball, and the defender can see the ball and must make a decision whether to tackle the ball carrier or cover a possible receiver.

That is very different to an unsighted defender calling for the ball to be passed to them by "impersonating" a team mate.

in one case a player is saying 'tackle me' in the other he's saying 'pass the ball to me'

I mean, sure, it's not exactly the same but (for me) it's not very different

whatever.

it's clear that different people see it differently, and I guess no one is likely to change their mind.

The key question for referees though is not what our personal opinion of it is : it's should it be a PK ?

In an ideal world, regardless of our own views, we'd all ref it the same way, for consistency.

For me I think safest way to ref it is to ignore it ---- for the various reasons above.

 

[tim White]

As an assessor, if a referee penalised a player under Law 9.27 'against the spirit of the game' I would find it difficult to criticise them. Equally, if they handled it with a 'get on with the game' type comment I would also find it difficult to criticise them. At my level I might expect a warning to desist from such tactics before penalising. So much depends on the context and tone of the game as to the best way forward here.

 

[Rich_NL]

in one case a player is saying 'tackle me' in the other he's saying 'pass the ball to me'

I mean, sure, it's not exactly the same but (for me) it's not very different

Actually, this is an interesting point - if the player was merely gesturing "pass the ball to me" I wouldn't bat an eyelid.