Cannon arm....

didds

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interesting little video...

 

Stu10


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Interesting! Wonder if this will garner referees' attention at elite level.

Also, at 3:52... "you are not allowed to latch onto the person before he makes contact with the opponent"... that's wrong, right? I'm confident that one-man latch before contact is allowed.
 
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Decorily

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Not really interesting in fairness.

Just a personal opinion from someone who doesn't really appear to be up to speed!

We all have options but that doesn't mean we are correct!
 

RemainingInTheGame


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Does anyone think it is legal?

BUT, if I wasn't made aware of it, or actively looking for it, I wouldn't notice it.
 

crossref


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it's a 'cannon' arm isn't it? Or am I mssing somethnig ?

Cannon, with two n's, is a long heavy gun on wheels. Lose an n and the word canon is a set of rules or traditions.
 

didds

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sorry! typo! Yes - cannon indeed!

Thread title updated!
 

buff


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Based on 14.2 it is difficult to make a case that the ball carrier has been tackled. He is neither lying, nor sitting nor has at least one knee on the ground.
 

didds

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agree with Buff wrt "tackjled" - at the time of placing a hand on the ground they havent mostly made any contact with the oppo, and certainly are not in the process of being "held" - let alone bring brought to ground 9ie buff's point about no knee being down etc)
 

Volun-selected


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If they use their arm to pivot as they launch forward then by basic physics they have to be putting some force through that hand… doesn’t that put them off their feet?
Off feet: Players are off their feet when any other part of the body is supported by the ground or players on the ground.
So if a ref wants to stop this behavior that seems a way to go.
 

didds

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Im not sure they themselves power via the arm. The hand on the floor is to hold themselves "up" while their team mates latch on behind ... keeping them so low as to not be able to be tackled and then the power (the cannon) comes on from the driving team mates. (based onw aht the guy in the video says anyway).
That all said i dont see why that off feet: usage as per V's post wouldnt be pertnent here. I can think of weasel-words to deny it (basically its so momenray and no different from a stumble and brace elsewhere on the ;pitch etc...) but that off-feet definition seems valid enough....
 

crossref


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I imagine they will quickly - before the RWC - issue a clarification, or Law change along the lines of

Requirements for a tackle

  1. For a tackle to occur, the ball-carrier is held and brought to ground by one or more opponents.
  2. Being brought to ground means that the ball-carrier is lying, sitting or has at least one knee, on the ground or on another player who is on the ground, or is using hand or arm to support body weight
  3. Being held means that a tackler must continue holding the ball-carrier until the ball-carrier is on the ground.
 

didds

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I imagine they will quickly - before the RWC - issue a clarification, or Law change along the lines of

Requirements for a tackle

  1. For a tackle to occur, the ball-carrier is held and brought to ground by one or more opponents.
  2. Being brought to ground means that the ball-carrier is lying, sitting or has at least one knee, on the ground or on another player who is on the ground, or is using hand or arm to support body weight
  3. Being held means that a tackler must continue holding the ball-carrier until the ball-carrier is on the ground.

except the ball carriers in this practise havent been brought to groundas there is no tackler at that time. And as pointed out by the guy in the OP video its almost then impossible to tackle without a head clash
 

chbg


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If not tackled: Law 13.1.

If tackled: Law 14.7.

It's just B hard to see when done.
 

Locke


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I don’t see it as illegal. It’s open play. I agree 13.1 applies. Since the ball carrier has his arm on the ground only briefly, I would say the ball carrier complies with 13.1.a.

Also, I saw a player do this in super rugby over the weekend. This is not at all confined to Ireland or Irish teams. Are they being coached to do this? I couldn’t say, but this SA analyst acting like this is something Irish teams made up to cheat the system and defeat the rest of the world is nonsense.
 

RemainingInTheGame


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I don’t see it as illegal. It’s open play. I agree 13.1 applies. Since the ball carrier has his arm on the ground only briefly, I would say the ball carrier complies with 13.1.a.

Also, I saw a player do this in super rugby over the weekend. This is not at all confined to Ireland or Irish teams. Are they being coached to do this? I couldn’t say, but this SA analyst acting like this is something Irish teams made up to cheat the system and defeat the rest of the world is nonsense.
What about the principle of Law 13?

"The game is played only by players who are on their feet."

Are they really on their feet if they would fall over without putting their hand down?
 

Jarrod Burton


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I don’t see it as illegal. It’s open play. I agree 13.1 applies. Since the ball carrier has his arm on the ground only briefly, I would say the ball carrier complies with 13.1.a.
The acts shown in he OP are Illegal for mine as the players are choosing to play off their feet.

I think a player who briefly touches the ground to maintain their balance after tripping or similar would be an acceptable use of 13.1, but choosing to use your arm as a support when moving forward like in the OP can't really be seen to be get(ting) up with the ball if they continue to use their arm as a support.

My other concerns are the tactic makes the player lead with their head which a) makes it difficult or nearly impossible to tackle without some level of head contact, b) leading with the head is generally considered dangerous play and c) the latching players greatly increase the risk of a serious neck injury if the BC drops head first onto the ground.
 

didds

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Im not seeing it as using the arm as continuous support - as the entire pocess happens quickly such that that player is driven forward and goes to ground as a result almost immediately POST drive .

However the second point Jarrod makes is the crux - it s done to provide a low height such that tackles become "impossible" to make without a head clash - which is what Jarrod says and the guy in the video constantly alludes to.
whether the leading-with-the-head in itself is any different to a dropped height crash is open to conjecture - personally i see no difference (CF pick and go close to the line in an attempt to score - that's always leading with the head and yet nobody would ever ping it )
 
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Volun-selected


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So SA raised it and WR said “use your judgement”
Gonna be fun…

And some open honesty as well…
we, as Designated Members, are caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to unintended consequences of ruling specifically either way.
 
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RemainingInTheGame


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My reading is that it should be a sanction unless the referee believes it is a stabilisation action.

So next step will be see how this is interpreted, and what this looks like.
 
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