"CBSY9" - another first experience

Waspsfan


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I had my first go last night with 'CBSY9' and thought I would share my experience for all those who are heading out to start their season today. It was a level 6 v 7 friendly, a second game for the former and first for the latter.

1) I wish I'd rehearsed my pre-match brief with regards the new engagement. I hadn't and it was awful - probably on a par with my first ever game!

2) It surprised me how much the players asked me about their position. Repeatedly 'am I too close' sir, and honesty I wasn't sure - it was my first game with this engagement process too.

3) Doing a new engagement process took quite a lot of concentration and as such I felt I was much less observant on the other aspects of the scrum. So much focus on saying the right things and watching the feed meant I was less observant on prop angles, back row binding and slingshot. I guess this will come in time.

4) The whole thing actually felt very odd and had more impact on me than I would have anticipated.

5) When on the non put in side, 'yes 9' needs to be loud!

6) There was occasionally some movement after set, but before ball in, which I endeavoured to manage by simply delaying the 'yes 9' and on one occasion resetting the scrum with a reminder that the ball wasn't coming in with it moving. I think this worked well, but some assessors may think a free kick for early shove was needed. Opinions? I reserved this for deliberate shoves just prior to the put in, and considered these movements as all part of the hit.

7) SHs struggled tremendously putting it in straight. But after 3 FKs they did and we then had two against the head. You need to set the standard high and then be consistent.

8) Having never given 'foot up' in my life I think I will this year. It is more relevant now hookers are trying to steal against the head.

Overall the new process provided many more challenges and took more focus than I had expected. I guess, like the players, it will take us time to do it naturally.
 

didds

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Good efforts WF... I take the above to mean that you hadn't had any opportunity to actually "ref" some scrums until your first outing?

This is not a dig at you personally but if the two teams packs had told you that they hadn't yet practiced the CBS, what might the collective thoughts of this forum be?

didds
 

Waspsfan


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It was the first time I was refereeing the engage in a proper match and it was the first time one set of players were doing it for real. By definition there will always be a first time for both of these events. In terms of preparation the players had practised on a scrum machine and in training against another pack - but without a referee present. Me, I had watched the videos, attended our society meeting, and practiced the calls but without a pack there. The next step, coming together, was what the pre season friendly was for!
 

Browner

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''having never given foot up in my life''

are you serious waspy ?!!!
 

Ian_Cook


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6) There was occasionally some movement after set, but before ball in, which I endeavoured to manage by simply delaying the 'yes 9' and on one occasion resetting the scrum with a reminder that the ball wasn't coming in with it moving.

Well done. Exactly what I would expect!

I think this worked well, but some assessors may think a free kick for early shove was needed. Opinions? I reserved this for deliberate shoves just prior to the put in, and considered these movements as all part of the hit.

IMO, that is a case of wait and see. If the movement appears to come in both directions or it appears to be just a bit of instability, then let it settle or reset with the warning as you did,

However, if it is consistently one team doing it, particulary if its more prevalent on the other team's throw-in, then take no prisoners. I expect that coaches will soon work out that the team throwing in needs to have the hooker ready to hook, meaning he cant push, and that will give them an 8 on 7 advantage in pushing power. At elite level, teams can usually cope with that, but down in the weeds, maybe not so much.

''having never given foot up in my life''

are you serious waspy ?!!!


I think he is.

I haven't seen a "foot up" PK for years? How would there be a "foot up" when loose head side hookers weren't hooking the ball, and tight head side hookers had their feet back and pushing.
 
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OB..


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Watched another pre-season/trial game (4 * 20 mins, unlimited rolling subs, 1 RC). Neither team seemed to understand quite what was needed despite a clear pre-match briefing. Old instincts took over. The first half wan't too bad after a couple of goes, but the referee was too keen not to hold the players, so said "yes, 9" a bit early. A good pause is clearly needed. One scrum half fed the ball straight but did so from alongside his own front row. Frequent changes in the front rows did not help.

The RC was a no-brainer. At a ruck the player punched an opponent. The referee whistled very loudly, so the player half stood up and head-butted another opponent.
 

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Watch a preseason (pro) friendly last night. Frequent collapses and feeding from the 9s. Quite disappointing.
 

Browner

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Re: "CBSY9" - another first experience

but the referee was too keen not to hold the players, so said "yes, 9" a bit early. A good pause is clearly needed..
Agree ...........
I went to watch a trial L7 v L9 [same 4x20 format] observations were ....... 1] first x3 scrums the ball came back out the tunnel as hookers struggled to hook cleanly, main cause IMO was too speedy a CBSY sequence ................. 2] Yes9 was mostly requested at the same rhythm as C-B-S and the players soon got very used to it & commenced the shove in anticipation of the Y9 arriving.......... 3] There was only x1 'crooked feed FK in 80 mins, as the 9's were left to do very much what they wanted. It was well worth my visit though, because i'm much clearer about what I will do next week for my 1st game, and irregular/longer spacing between S & Y9 will be part of it.

- - - Updated - - -

Watch a preseason (pro) friendly last night. Frequent collapses and feeding from the 9s. Quite disappointing.

You almost sound surprised !
 

wrighty


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Re: "CBSY9" - another first experience

Saw a game today and noticed that the LH took the outside/over bind.There were no problems and to me it removed any chance of the TH exerting a bit of downward pressure! Does the new law specify who should bind under and who over ? If so which way round ? Hopefully it's the TH taking the inside/under bind !!
 

Ian_Cook


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Re: "CBSY9" - another first experience

Saw a game today and noticed that the LH took the outside/over bind.There were no problems and to me it removed any chance of the TH exerting a bit of downward pressure! Does the new law specify who should bind under and who over ? If so which way round ? Hopefully it's the TH taking the inside/under bind !!



Yes there is. LH outside/over is technically an illegal bind.

[LAWS]LAW 20.3 BINDING IN THE SCRUM
(c) Binding by loose head props. A loose head prop must bind on the opposing tight head
prop by placing the left arm inside the right arm of the tight head and gripping the tight
head prop’s jersey on the back or side. The loose head prop must not grip the chest, arm,
sleeve or collar of the opposition tight head prop. The loose head prop must not exert any
downward pressure.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(d) Binding by tight head props. A tight head prop must bind on the opposing loose head prop
by placing the right arm outside the left upper arm of the opposing loose head prop. The
tight head prop must grip the loose head prop’s jersey with the right hand only on the back
or side. The tight head prop must not grip the chest, arm, sleeve or collar of the opposition
loose head prop. The tight head prop must not exert any downward pressure.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

There are two schools of thought on this...

1. Let it go if its working and the players are comfortable with it.

2. Stop it happening and make them bind correctly.

I tend to support no. 2.

The scrum is a risky part of the game. If you allow it, and there is a scrum collapse in which a player gets a spinal injury, and it comes out that you allowed illegal binding, you could find yourself in deep trouble if any civil proceedings followed.
 
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Re: "CBSY9" - another first experience

Saw a game today and noticed that the LH took the outside/over bind.There were no problems and to me it removed any chance of the TH exerting a bit of downward pressure! Does the new law specify who should bind under and who over ? If so which way round ? Hopefully it's the TH taking the inside/under bind !!

The law is clear on where the props bind:

Law 20.3

(c) Binding by loose head props. A loose head prop must bind on the opposing tight head prop by placing the left arm inside the right arm of the tight head and gripping the tight head prop’s jersey on the back or side. The loose head prop must not grip the chest, arm, sleeve or collar of the opposition tight head prop. The loose head prop must not exert any downward pressure. Sanction: Penalty kick
(d) Binding by tight head props. A tight head prop must bind on the opposing loose head prop by placing the right arm outside the left upper arm of the opposing loose head prop. The tight head prop must grip the loose head prop’s jersey with the right hand only on the back or side. The tight head prop must not grip the chest, arm, sleeve or collar of the opposition loose head prop. The tight head prop must not exert any downward pressure. Sanction: Penalty kick
 

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Re: "CBSY9" - another first experience

...You almost sound surprised !

Sadly it is exactly what I expected. As I posted in another thread, The problem was / is the lack of adoption of the existing laws. Bringing in "new" laws and still failing to enforce parts of the law changes nothing.

Same old, same old.
 

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Re: "CBSY9" - another first experience

The law is clear on where the props bind:

Law 20.3

(c) Binding by loose head props. A loose head prop must bind on the opposing tight head prop by placing the left arm inside the right arm of the tight head and gripping the tight head prop’s jersey on the back or side. The loose head prop must not grip the chest, arm, sleeve or collar of the opposition tight head prop. The loose head prop must not exert any downward pressure. Sanction: Penalty kick
(d) Binding by tight head props. A tight head prop must bind on the opposing loose head prop by placing the right arm outside the left upper arm of the opposing loose head prop. The tight head prop must grip the loose head prop’s jersey with the right hand only on the back or side. The tight head prop must not grip the chest, arm, sleeve or collar of the opposition loose head prop. The tight head prop must not exert any downward pressure. Sanction: Penalty kick

Hopefully one of you old front row types can confirm my belief .............. I thought that the primary reason that the THP was made to bind over the LHP's arm was to protect the LHP's Hooker from being pressured by the THP [as to do otherwise gives the THP far too much of a leverage advantage] am I right?
 

Dickie E


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Re: "CBSY9" - another first experience

I thought that the primary reason that the THP was made to bind over the LHP's arm was to protect the LHP's Hooker from being pressured by the THP

You may be right. However, try acting yourself as a THP and then as a LHP with a friend. It just feels right for the LHP's arm to go inside and the THP to go outside.
 
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