Charge down team player infront

Joe@trfc

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I had two charge downs at the weekend and not sure I got the calls right:
1 - Red kick down the park blue 15 picks up and kicks which is only partially charged down by red and still goes 25m. Retiring blue prop catches turns around and runs towards reds goal. I said nothing and he was soon brought to ground. Was the blue prop offside?

2 - This time the charge down by red 7 was better and the ball when sideways which the red winger picked from the air and scored. This time the winger was behind his flanker team mate so I was happy to carry on but what if the winger had been in front of his 7 team mate?
 

chbg


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1. No - Red contact with ball puts all Blue onside.
2. Okay as stated, but IF Red player had been in front of last Red to play the ball then OFFSIDE. At your level you effectively have a choice whether to penalise by a PK (if deliberate playing of the ball) or a scrum if it was much more an instinctive reaction.
 

Ian_Cook


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1. No - Red contact with ball puts all Blue onside.
2. Okay as stated, but IF Red player had been in front of last Red to play the ball then OFFSIDE. At your level you effectively have a choice whether to penalise by a PK (if deliberate playing of the ball) or a scrum if it was much more an instinctive reaction.

Yes, and No. 2 is the one that referees most often get wrong.


Team-mates ahead of their kicker when the ball is charged down are put onside because the last player to play the ball was not a team-mate.

[LAWS]11.3 BEING PUT ONSIDE BY OPPONENTS
(c) Intentionally touches ball. When an opponent intentionally touches the ball but does not
catch it, the offside player is put onside.[/LAWS]

Team-mates ahead of their charger when he charges the ball down are offside because the last player to play the ball was a team-mate.

[LAWS]LAW 11 DEFINITIONS
In general play a player is offside if the player is in front of a team-mate who is
carrying the ball, or in front of a team-mate who last played the ball.[/LAWS]
 

crossref


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I had one earlier this season

Blue kicked the ball into Red in goal area
red get back first and pick up the ball, and attempt a clearance kick
blue charge it down, just about on the tryline, and it goes back into the in-goal directly to the feet of an offside blue player who immediately drops on it to score a try (he thinks)

It's not a try, because he was offside.

blue think it is a try because
- "there is no offside from a charge down" but yes there is for the chargers team mates
- "there is no offside in the in goal" but while it's true that there are no offside line (as no rucks, mauls or scrums) you can still be offside by being in front of teammate who last played the ball (as here).

My only hesitation was whether the instantaneous touchdown was 'instinctive', so perhaps I should award a 5m scrum to red or 'deliberate' so a PK to Red. neither seemed wholly attractive option....
 

ChrisR

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The law is no so forgiving. PK for offside on player "scoring" the try. Now, if it bounced off him then I'd say scrum 5m.
 

The Fat


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I had one earlier this season

Blue kicked the ball into Red in goal area
red get back first and pick up the ball, and attempt a clearance kick
blue charge it down, just about on the tryline, and it goes back into the in-goal directly to the feet of an offside blue player who immediately drops on it to score a try (he thinks)

It's not a try, because he was offside.

blue think it is a try because
- "there is no offside from a charge down" but yes there is for the chargers team mates
- "there is no offside in the in goal" but while it's true that there are no offside line (as no rucks, mauls or scrums) you can still be offside by being in front of teammate who last played the ball (as here).

My only hesitation was whether the instantaneous touchdown was 'instinctive', so perhaps I should award a 5m scrum to red or 'deliberate' so a PK to Red. neither seemed wholly attractive option....

I don't know what others do but if a player in an offside position has the ball come to him in a way that he can't avoid contact i.e. ball pops forward from a team mate and hits him or a team mate throws a short pass directly to him etc, etc, then I call it accidental offside and award a scrum to the non-offending team.
In your scenario, the offside blue player moves to the ball on the ground (i.e. performs an action if you like). Instinctive or not, HE drops onto the ball thinking he will score a try. In this scenario, I would penalise him for offside and award a PK to red in line with where he touched the ball and out on the 5m line.
 

crossref


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I did give the PK, for the reasons you gave.

I felt a bit sorry for him though: at my level if I don't think there is more than 1 in 100 players in that positon (in the opponents in goal, ball at their feet..) who would have the presence of mind, or the knowledge even, to think "hang on I am offside, better leave it". In some sense it was 'instinctive'. but it was also deliberate, for a split second at least he thought he was scoring a try

Of course Blue were even more upset, - not only was it not a try, it wasn't even a 5m scrum or a 22m ! A PK against us ????
The fun of refereeing :)
 
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Browner

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I did give the PK, for the reasons you gave.

I felt a bit sorry for him though: at my level if I don't think there is more than 1 in 100 players in that positon (in the opponents in goal, ball at their feet..) who would have the presence of mind, or the knowledge even, to think "hang on I am offside, better leave it". In some sense it was 'instinctive'. but it was also deliberate, for a split second at least he thought he was scoring a try

Of course Blue were even more upset, - not only was it not a try, it wasn't even a 5m scrum or a 22m ! A PK against us ????
The fun of refereeing :)

Cue the match report..... " everyone was bemused by the referees strange decision " ..:shrug:
 

OB..


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I don't know what others do but if a player in an offside position has the ball come to him in a way that he can't avoid contact i.e. ball pops forward from a team mate and hits him or a team mate throws a short pass directly to him etc, etc, then I call it accidental offside and award a scrum to the non-offending team/QUOTE][LAWS]11.1 (a) ... A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside. ...[/LAWS]Any sanction is for the throw forward.
 

crossref


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Cue the match report..... " everyone was bemused by the referees strange decision " ..:shrug:

:) except that it's one of those things that players get wrong on the pitch --- but then when they a get a chance after the game to to think it through properly they get it.

it was one of those in goal moments when lots of things happen in quick succession, and you have to replay the video in your mind -- you will know what I mean!
 

Browner

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:) except that it's one of those things that players get wrong on the pitch --- but then when they a get a chance after the game to to think it through properly they get it.

it was one of those in goal moments when lots of things happen in quick succession, and you have to replay the video in your mind -- you will know what I mean!

Lol, of course

Amid urgent claim and equally pleading counter claim, I've been known to say ......" Give me a moment players, I'm consulting my visual recall TMO .............. OK, got it, he's confirmed my thinking..... "xxxdecisionxxxx" it is.....
 

Ian_Cook


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I had one earlier this season

Blue kicked the ball into Red in goal area
red get back first and pick up the ball, and attempt a clearance kick
blue charge it down, just about on the tryline, and it goes back into the in-goal directly to the feet of an offside blue player who immediately drops on it to score a try (he thinks)

It's not a try, because he was offside.

blue think it is a try because
- "there is no offside from a charge down" but yes there is for the chargers team mates
- "there is no offside in the in goal" but while it's true that there are no offside line (as no rucks, mauls or scrums) you can still be offside by being in front of teammate who last played the ball (as here).

My only hesitation was whether the instantaneous touchdown was 'instinctive', so perhaps I should award a 5m scrum to red or 'deliberate' so a PK to Red. neither seemed wholly attractive option....


Where did you make the mark for the PK?
 

crossref


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Where did you make the mark for the PK?

On the 5m line, which as I understand it is correct in the current Laws.
Not so long ago it would have been where the offence took place (in goal) - which to be honest would seem fairer to me. Don't see why they should get 10m of territory as well as a PK.
 

ddjamo


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just for the heck of it crossref...did the attempted clearing kick cross the goal line?
 

crossref


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just for the heck of it crossref...did the attempted clearing kick cross the goal line?

I am not sure, I don't remember..

Also, now I think back on it, above I said that Blue kicked the ball into the red in goal in the first place, but now I think back I think actually red actually took it in -- which would explain why he was trying to make a clearance kick, to avoid a 5m scrum, rather than just make it dead for a 22m. I think it was a terrible back pass from Red SH, that 10 trapped with his legs, and then picked up, which also gave the opportunty for blue to get close enough to charge.
Something like that-- It was all very scrappy anyway! With lots of players all close.
 

ddjamo


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so red take it in, try and clear it, are unsuccessful and are awarded a pk?
 

crossref


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so red take it in, try and clear it, are unsuccessful and are awarded a pk?

exactly - -that's what I meant about the decision not being attractive. It did seem tough on blue, who had red under loads of pressure, panicking and making errors, then thought they had scored ... only to find they had conceded a PK !

Although - I don't think they all really thought they had scored. there was some celebration, but there was also a lot of players (from both teams) looking at me wondering what exatly had just happened, and what the f*** I was going to give :)

and it didn't cause a big argument or anything, I gave my decision, and we all just gone on with it. ( I have feeling I could have given 5m scrum, 22m drop out, PK or a Try, and sold any of them -- or at least some of the players woiuld have agreed with me :) )
 
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TheBFG


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Red make an attempted clearance kick, as the red #10 kicks the ball it hits red #12 in the side of the head (don't laugh, but it was very funny!) the ball continues 5-10 m forward where black field it and are immediately tackled by red players ahead of the kicker, what do you call?
 

crossref


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Red make an attempted clearance kick, as the red #10 kicks the ball it hits red #12 in the side of the head (don't laugh, but it was very funny!) the ball continues 5-10 m forward where black field it and are immediately tackled by red players ahead of the kicker, what do you call?

I think the 10m Law doesn't apply, so the red players in front of the kicker didn't need to retire, only stand still
But when they tackled blaxck they are offside, so PK to balck.
 

Dixie


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If a player in an offside position has the ball come to him in a way that he can't avoid contact i.e. ball pops forward from a team mate and hits him or a team mate throws a short pass directly to him etc, etc, then I call it accidental offside and award a scrum to the non-offending team.
In your scenario, the offside blue player moves to the ball on the ground (i.e. performs an action if you like). Instinctive or not, HE drops onto the ball thinking he will score a try. In this scenario, I would penalise him for offside and award a PK to red in line with where he touched the ball and out on the 5m line.
Interesting. How would you treat a reflex catch? i.e. ball comes to him in a way he can't avoid, and he instinctively catches it? Would you treat the catch as an elective act giving rise to the PK (similar to falling in the ball without thinking), or would you give accidental offside on the basis he had no time to think and had to resort to instinctive behaviour?

I think the 10m Law doesn't apply, so the red players in front of the kicker didn't need to retire, only stand still
But when they tackled black they are offside, so PK to black.
Not sure why you feel the 10m law doesn't apply.

[LAWS]11.4e) The 10-metre Law is not altered by the fact that the ball has hit a goal post or a crossbar [or presumably a referee or team mate]. What matters is where the ball lands. An offside player must not be in front of the imaginary 10-metre line across the field.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

Looks to me like the player who was hit by the ball was accidentally offside, and the players who failed to retire were potentially offside under the 10m law. Successive offences by the same team. The failure to retire will almost always be material in those circumstances - see whether an advantage accrues then award the PK. As always, we need to know whether that is at the place they were when they failed to retire, or at the place they should have retired to. For me, the latter makes the most sense.
 
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