Charge down team player infront

[crossref]

I was thinking of this

[LAWS](f)
The 10-metre Law does not apply when a player kicks the ball, and an opponent charges down the kick, and a team-mate of the kicker who was in front of the imaginary 10-metre line across the field then plays the ball. The opponent was not 'waiting to play the ball' and the team-mate is onside. The 10-metre Law applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but is not charged down.[/LAWS]

but misrembering it, as it doesn't apply technically. But maybe it should

 

[ddjamo]

not being there and not seeing it it's hard to be absolute but I would be leaning towards, "red's clearing was unsuccessful, red accidentally offside, ball is dead, 5m attacking scrum." please don't give me the usual, "law reference please," equity over law for me on this one. red was going to make it dead anyway.

**if the clearing kick attempt did not cross the line.**

 

[crossref]

yes, but IMO when the Laws are clear the most equitable thing you can do is to apply them.

for me Equity only really comes in when the Laws are unclear, or contradictory, or don't cover the situation.

 

[ddjamo]

you asked for opinions and I gave mine. I cannot see how a punitive pk or a preventative pk in that situation does any good. why not do what's best for the match and not the little green book? you said you could have sold any decision....so why pk? you have a few options there CR and you chose the most punishing for a basically non material offense. I am assuming, based on your description, that red would have tried to make it dead anyway.

I am only giving you food for thought regarding your game - the original intent of this site - not arguing.

 

[FightOrFlight]

What I always love about PKs against the attacking team when they are in goal and they have grounded is the fact that you give a sharp blow and raise your hand to signal the PK. This to them appears much as a try signal and both teams react accordingly...attackers celebrate and defenders appeal.

I had a guy last season sniper crawl 3m to the line and ground the ball. I signalled a PK to the defenders however as I said this looked to those around at first glance a try award. Defenders go mad but attackers run off celebrating. I explain "no try PK...player playing the ball off his feet...you get up or release the ball but you cannot crawl". Defending 9 picks the ball up(from where it was grounded)...runs out 5m to where I am, takes it quick and runs the length to under the sticks...attacking team were back 10 but in a sort of huddle of celebration........it was a hard enough sell when the PKed team captain approached me as the actual try at the other end was being converted...but I didn't feel I was wrong is any way.

 

[crossref]

ddjamo - I didn't mean to be dismissive.
Yes, I like to hear different views and possibilities - indeed it's what the site is for.

I he hadn't touched it ... who knows what would have happened next :
- either the ball would have gone dead on its own (and I would have had to decide whether the clearance kick cleared the try line and give 22m or 5m)
- or the next player to reach the ball would have touched it down, which could have been a defender (ditto ) an onside blue player (eg the charger) for a try ..or some other offside blue player.

 

[OB..]

What I always love about PKs against the attacking team when they are in goal and they have grounded is the fact that you give a sharp blow and raise your hand to signal the PK. This to them appears much as a try signal and both teams react accordingly...attackers celebrate and defenders appeal.

I had a guy last season sniper crawl 3m to the line and ground the ball. I signalled a PK to the defenders however as I said this looked to those around at first glance a try award. Defenders go mad but attackers run off celebrating. I explain "no try PK...player playing the ball off his feet...you get up or release the ball but you cannot crawl". Defending 9 picks the ball up(from where it was grounded)...runs out 5m to where I am, takes it quick and runs the length to under the sticks...attacking team were back 10 but in a sort of huddle of celebration........it was a hard enough sell when the PKed team captain approached me as the actual try at the other end was being converted...but I didn't feel I was wrong is any way.

Practice your signals?

[LAWS]Penalty: Shoulders parallel with touchline. Arm angled up, pointing towards non-offending team.
Try: Referee’s back to dead ball line. Arm raised vertically.
[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

I had a guy last season sniper crawl 3m to the line and ground the ball. I signalled a PK to the defenders however as I said this looked to those around at first glance a try award. Defenders go mad but attackers run off celebrating. I explain "no try PK...player playing the ball off his feet...you get up or release the ball but you cannot crawl". Defending 9 picks the ball up(from where it was grounded)...runs out 5m to where I am, takes it quick and runs the length to under the sticks...attacking team were back 10 but in a sort of huddle of celebration........it was a hard enough sell when the PKed team captain approached me as the actual try at the other end was being converted...but I didn't feel I was wrong is any way.

nightmare!

So in theory the Laws do cover this :
- try is signalled with your back facing the dead ball line, hand vertical
- PK is signalled standing parallel to touchline, with slightly angled arm.

But in practice referees are much more casual.
Note to self : be more strict about posture in future.


BTW weall complain about mouthy SHs , but on the other hand I find it's very often the SH who pays the most attention to what is going on, and will be quickk thinking enough to seize that sort of opportunity.

 

[FightOrFlight]

nightmare!

So in theory the Laws do cover this :
- try is signalled with your back facing the dead ball line, hand vertical
- PK is signalled standing parallel to touchline, with slightly angled arm.

But in practice referees are much more casual.
Note to self : be more strict about posture in future.


BTW weall complain about mouthy SHs , but on the other hand I find it's very often the SH who pays the most attention to what is going on, and will be quickk thinking enough to seize that sort of opportunity.

Practice your signals?

[LAWS]Penalty: Shoulders parallel with touchline. Arm angled up, pointing towards non-offending team.
Try: Referee’s back to dead ball line. Arm raised vertically.
[/LAWS]

To be honest I signalled the PK and my arm was nowhere near the vertical. I was pretty much angled as described for a PK but if you go over and ground the ball and hear any sort of loud whistle and see an upward arm you may be inclined to think try and in this case they were...however I did immediately state no try but they were too busy running around to listen...im surprised they kept their tops on..:biggrin:

I do agree that the 9 is the quickest to pick up on things...sometimes so quick he see's things that are not happening...:smile:

 

[Waspsfan]

Why was the penalty on the 5m line and not at the place of infringement?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Practice your signals?

[LAWS]Penalty: Shoulders parallel with touchline. Arm angled up, pointing towards non-offending team.
Try: Referee’s back to dead ball line. Arm raised vertically.
[/LAWS]

Yep. Watch what the elite referees do. When they award a PK to the defending team, especially close to their goal-line, the referee will face the defending team's DBL, blow the whistle and signal the PK with an angled arm forward (from him) and parallel to the touchlines. For a try, he will simply blow the whistle and put his arm directly upwards.

 

[OB..]

Why was the penalty on the 5m line and not at the place of infringement?

[LAWS]21.2 (b) When a penalty or free kick is awarded in in-goal, the mark for the kick is in the field of play, 5 metres from the goal line, in line with the place of infringement.[/LAWS]

 

[Dickie E]

What I always love about PKs against the attacking team when they are in goal and they have grounded is the fact that you give a sharp blow and raise your hand to signal the PK. This to them appears much as a try signal and both teams react accordingly...attackers celebrate and defenders appeal.

I had a guy last season sniper crawl 3m to the line and ground the ball. I signalled a PK to the defenders however as I said this looked to those around at first glance a try award. Defenders go mad but attackers run off celebrating. I explain "no try PK...player playing the ball off his feet...you get up or release the ball but you cannot crawl". Defending 9 picks the ball up(from where it was grounded)...runs out 5m to where I am, takes it quick and runs the length to under the sticks...attacking team were back 10 but in a sort of huddle of celebration........it was a hard enough sell when the PKed team captain approached me as the actual try at the other end was being converted...but I didn't feel I was wrong is any way.

there is enough ambiguity in this scenario that I wouldn't let the defenders take a quick tap. I have been in this situation and blown the penalty, observed that everyone thinks its a try so I have blown time off to explain what is going on.

 

[Dickie E]

Practice your signals?

[LAWS]Penalty: Shoulders parallel with touchline. Arm angled up, pointing towards non-offending team.
Try: Referee’s back to dead ball line. Arm raised vertically.
[/LAWS]

Sometimes I don't know if you're joking or not. In this case, I hope you are.

 

[Waspsfan]

[LAWS]21.2 (b) When a penalty or free kick is awarded in in-goal, the mark for the kick is in the field of play, 5 metres from the goal line, in line with the place of infringement.[/LAWS]

The offence as described wasn't in the in goal area but rather just short of the try line. Penalty at place of infringement - although often incorrectly moved to the five metre line in confusion with a penalty against the attacking team.

 

[The Fat]

The offence as described wasn't in the in goal area but rather just short of the try line. Penalty at place of infringement - although often incorrectly moved to the five metre line in confusion with a penalty against the attacking team.

I read it differently. The red player, who is in goal, kicks but as the ball crosses the goal line, blue player charges the ball down which then rebounds back into the in-goal area and lands at the feet of another blue player (who is in front of his team mate who charged down the kick. This 2nd, offside, blue player then dives/falls on the ball.
If it is a PK for offside, the place of infringement was where the 2nd (offside) blue player fell on the ball (in in-goal).
PK to red on 5m line and in line with where the infringement took place.

 

[TheBFG]

I read it differently. The red player, who is in goal, kicks but as the ball crosses the goal line, blue player charges the ball down which then rebounds back into the in-goal area and lands at the feet of another blue player (who is in front of his team mate who charged down the kick. This 2nd, offside, blue player then dives/falls on the ball.
If it is a PK for offside, the place of infringement was where the 2nd (offside) blue player fell on the ball (in in-goal).
PK to red on 5m line and in line with where the infringement took place.

Fat, wrong PK, Wasps is talking about the Irish guy that crawled along the floor from 3m out (gets confusing when threads get other scenarios involved in them, guilty too!)

 

[OB..]

Sometimes I don't know if you're joking or not. In this case, I hope you are.

Why onearth would I be joking in quoting the law? If a referee just waves a hand in the air while jogging across I can well see it being misunderstood. In circumstacnes when it matters to be clear, then he should be punctilious in making it the signal correctly in both location and action.

He may need to add other management, such as a loud explanation, but getting the signal correct is an essential start.

 

[Dickie E]

Why onearth would I be joking

I don't know why but to suggest whether or not the ref has his back to the goal line or the touch line as an indicator strikes me as an attempt at humour.

 

[OB..]

I don't know why but to suggest whether or not the ref has his back to the goal line or the touch line as an indicator strikes me as an attempt at humour.

Really? When I quoted the law book description which distinguishes the two?

Normally the location is also a dead giveaway- PK: at the spot; and try: standing on the goal line. If those points are close, then the referee has to be extra careful in both signals and verbals.