Charge down, teammate in front picks up ball and runs

[crossref]

So basically it has to be an attempt to block a kick.

So, rule of thumb:
1. if ball is ascending and intentionally played by non-kicking team, all kicking team put onside
2. if ball is descending and intentionally played (but not caught) by non-kicking team, all kicking team put onside EXCEPT those bound by 10 metre law

Yes?

I don't think the ball has to ascending for it to be a charge down. you can charge down a flat grubber kick

 

[crossref]

Looking back through old law books there doesnt ever seem to have beena definition for a charge down.

The best I can find is this....Charge down. If a player charges down the ball as an opponent kicks it, or immediately after the kick, it is not a knock-on even though the ball may travel forward.

So basically it has to be an attempt to block a kick.

This is an attempt to block a kick - is it a charge down ?

in the context of Law 11, it doesn't matter - because either way it's not a knock on
but in the context of 10.4c it could be important to know if this is a chargedown, or merely playing the ball

 

[chbg]

For me 10.4c simply applies when "the ball touches or is played by an opponent" as it is about to be caught or landing. Bouncing on an opponent's head, or a fumble when trying to be caught, or any other such actions, does not negate the 10m offside Law. An attempted charge-down, shortly after the ball has left the kicker's foot, changes the flight of the ball and puts all the kicker's team onside, in exchange for not being liable for a KO. So I am with Dickie.

Further dissection of the Law, as has often been said, does not add value to the simple game. I cannot even see a pinhead now, let alone count the angels dancing.

 

[Dickie E]

I don't think the ball has to ascending for it to be a charge down. you can charge down a flat grubber kick

the grubber kick. To me this is a kick where the ball bounces along the ground. Does the 10 metre law even apply here? The ball is never "caught" and "lands" just in front of the kicker.

Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately behind an onside team-mate or an imaginary line across the field 10 metres on that player’s side from where the ball is caught or lands

 

[crossref]

For me 10.4c simply applies when "the ball touches or is played by an opponent" as it is about to be caught or landing. Bouncing on an opponent's head, or a fumble when trying to be caught, or any other such actions, does not negate the 10m offside Law. An attempted charge-down, shortly after the ball has left the kicker's foot, changes the flight of the ball and puts all the kicker's team onside, in exchange for not being liable for a KO. So I am with Dickie.

Further dissection of the Law, as has often been said, does not add value to the simple game. I cannot even see a pinhead now, let alone count the angels dancing.

But your definition of a charge down is actually different from Dickies (who said it's only a charge down if the ball is rising )

It's also different from Phil's first post where he defined it using the diagram he posted, but similar to his second definition (attempt to block a kick)

My only point is that it would be good to have a definition in the Law book, to get everyone on the same page.

Anyway, .... for you .. looking at my diagram, post #22 , that would(?) count as a charge down under 10.4c, and 10m rule would not apply..

 

[Phil E]

A charge down is an exception to the knock on law, so using your foot isnt a charge down in my book as it doesnt fit the description.

I think we can all agree that a definition would be nice, but at the end of the day I feel that I know what a charge down looks like, and so do the players.

 

[crossref]

A charge down is an exception to the knock on law, so using your foot isnt a charge down in my book as it doesnt fit the description.

I think we can all agree that a definition would be nice, but at the end of the day I feel that I know what a charge down looks like, and so do the players.

A charge down is two things

1 - it's an exception to the knock on Law.

• here we are only concerned with charge downs that go forward, off the hands/arms
• because any other sort of charge down wouldn't be a knock on in the first place

2 - it's an exception to the 10m rule, where generally playing the ball would NOT cancel the 10m rule, but a charge down does cancel it

• here we are only really concerned with attempted charge downs - where the ball continues on its way, as that is when the 10m rule bites

I agree with you, Phil, that a blocking the kick using your foot (as per diagram #22) is NOT a charge down.
So if that happened then 10m rule would still apply.
But I don't know if others would agree?

 

[Volun-selected]

So, rule of thumb:
1. if ball is ascending and intentionally played by non-kicking team, all kicking team put onside
2. if ball is descending and intentionally played (but not caught) by non-kicking team, all kicking team put onside EXCEPT those bound by 10 metre law

Yes?

I think the definition of a charge down is important here in that it has immediately after an opponent has kicked it so if enough time has passed after the kick for the ball to be descending then that’s not immediately afterwards.

As this is all in the knock-on section and the definition of a knock on has the contact is striking the ball with hand or arm that seems to preclude kicking it down. That said, if the (usually a lock) is diving with arms out but ends up using their chest or face or even their belly then personally I’d treat that as a charge down.

 

[Dickie E]

Timely moment. For those of you with televisions, have a look in the 4th minute of Wallabies v SA. Green kicks ball and Gold instinctively & intentionally blocks kicked ball with his foot. Is it a charge down? ie if kick had continued down field would you have applied 10 metre law?

 

[Dickie E]

Reprising the grubber kick & 10 metre law. Blue attempts a 50:22 by kicking the ball low & hard & bouncing. Unfortunately for him, the Red winger is waiting to gather the ball as it bounces towards him. Standing 5 metres from the Red winger is an offside Blue player. What are the obligations on this Blue player?

 

[ianh5979]

Reprising the grubber kick & 10 metre law. Blue attempts a 50:22 by kicking the ball low & hard & bouncing. Unfortunately for him, the Red winger is waiting to gather the ball as it bounces towards him. Standing 5 metres from the Red winger is an offside Blue player. What are the obligations on this Blue player?

Blue player is offside under 10 metre law and has to retreat until put onside by an onside team mate

 

[Dickie E]

Blue player is offside under 10 metre law and has to retreat until put onside by an onside team mate

But 10 metre law only applies if ball is caught or lands downfield. The scenario is grubber kick

Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately behind an onside team-mate or an imaginary line across the field 10 metres on that player’s side from where the ball is caught or lands

 

[didds]

would it not be that the ball effectively - from a grubber - has landed a metre or two in forint of the kicker... and the 10m law is a line across the field - so blue standing near the red winger is still offside under the 10m law?

 

[Dickie E]

would it not be that the ball effectively - from a grubber - has landed a metre or two in forint of the kicker... and the 10m law is a line across the field - so blue standing near the red winger is still offside under the 10m law?

maybe but if that's the case the Red winger is irrelevant and every Blue player in front of the kicker is offside under 10 metre law and must actively retire

 

[didds]

Yes. Obviously. It just means the nuance over the red winger is irrelevant to the question asked. Its redundant information in the OP.

 

[Stu10]

Timely moment. For those of you with televisions, have a look in the 4th minute of Wallabies v SA. Green kicks ball and Gold instinctively & intentionally blocks kicked ball with his foot. Is it a charge down? ie if kick had continued down field would you have applied 10 metre law?

Has gold kicked the ball last?

Ignoring my comment above, I initially thought the need for a definition of a charge down is unnecessary, since we all know what one looks like, right? However, this discussion has forced me to read law 10.4.c more closely, and the last sentence has caught my attention:

An offside player may be penalised, if that player:
Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately behind an onside team-mate or an imaginary line across the field 10 metres on that player’s side from where the ball is caught or lands, even if it hits a goal post or crossbar first. If this involves more than one player, then the player closest to where the ball lands or is caught is the one penalised. This is known as the 10-metre law and still applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but not when the kick is charged down.

In all my playing days and after, in every relevant instance I've heard the call, "touched in flight" and subsequently the kicker's teammates further up the pitch have been allowed to catch the ball without being called offside.

"Touched in flight" appears to be a meaningless statement if 10.4.c is strictly followed... only a charge down mitigates the kicker's teammates being offside if in front of the kicker. 10.4.c also indicates that "played by an opponent" and a "charge down" appear to be different things, since there are different outcomes. Hence the question, what exactly is a "charge down"?

 

[Stu10]

Reprising the grubber kick & 10 metre law. Blue attempts a 50:22 by kicking the ball low & hard & bouncing. Unfortunately for him, the Red winger is waiting to gather the ball as it bounces towards him. Standing 5 metres from the Red winger is an offside Blue player. What are the obligations on this Blue player?

Blue has already committed an offence being in front of the kicker and interfering with play (being 5m from red winger reduces his/her options), so can point to 10.1 if you don't think 10.4.c applies (though I would argue law 10.4.c can still be applied with the imaginary line across the field being even closer to the kicker)... many would blow immediately for offside, though personally I would see if red winger beats his/her opponent and makes a break, if not then penalty.

 

[Dickie E]

Blue has already committed an offence being in front of the kicker and interfering with play (being 5m from red winger reduces his/her options), so can point to 10.1 if you don't think 10.4.c applies (though I would argue law 10.4.c can still be applied with the imaginary line across the field being even closer to the kicker)... many would blow immediately for offside, though personally I would see if red winger beats his/her opponent and makes a break, if not then penalty.

so you're saying that there is nothing the blue player can do to prevent a penalty? Not even run away from the red player?

 

[Blackberry]

So....here's how I'm describing it to new players:

There's a 10 metre law where you can be criminally offside....offside just for being there when the ball comes down, unless its come off a chargedown.

Sorted.

 

[crossref]

So....here's how I'm describing it to new players:

There's a 10 metre law where you can be criminally offside....offside just for being there when the ball comes down, unless its come off a chargedown.

Sorted.

except you haven't defined a chargedown, and - crucially - what the difference is between the oppo doing a chargedown (no 10m law) and otherwise playing the ball (10 Rule still applies)