Charging the conversion from a penalty try

[oldman]

Fellow Referees please help.
After watching my clubs first team yesterday (level 7) I overheard a conversation between the referee, who in my opinion refereed very well, and his assessor/mentor/coach. The referee had awarded a penalty try for a high tackle on the winger, no problem, yellow card issued as per. Summing up the discussion the referee had allowed the non scorers to charge the conversion attempt. His a/m/c told him this was wrong, they cannot charge a conversion after a penalty try.
Try as I might I cannot find this in the law book, in fact I can find no reference to the charge at a penalty try being different to a normal try. Your comments most welcome.

 

[Phil E]

Assessor was wrong. A conversion is a conversion is a conversion, it can be charged like any other.
Assessor needs to quote the law that says you can't...but there isn't one.

This is an urban myth usually touted by players. I am amazed that an assessor should say it! :wow:

 

[The Fat]

Assessor needs to read Law 9.
It's not a big section, only about one page so won't take him long. As a matter of fact, he should have time to read it a couple of times so it sinks in.

 

[Pegleg]

An assessor being wrong. Fancy that! Her probably wrote "You have to let him up!" too.

 

[Balones]

Why are you blaming an assessor? The original post mentioned a coach or mentor.:hap:
Anyway we are called Match Observers nowadays. (Even that is likely to change.)

 

[Rushforth]

Try as I might I cannot find this in the law book, in fact I can find no reference to the charge at a penalty try being different to a normal try. Your comments most welcome.

http://laws.worldrugby.org/?highlight=penalty try&law=22.4
(i) A penalty try is awarded between the goal posts. The defending team may charge the conversion kick after a penalty try.

 

[OB..]

I have seen this myth shot down many times, but it still keeps coming back. Why? The specific point only entered the laws in the 2000 re-write, and is in Law 22 rather than Law 9. People seem to assume that because you cannot charge a PK, that must also apply to the conversion of a PT.

I sincerely hope it was not an adviser/assessor/match observer getting it wrong..

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Another thing that may have happened here. Did the offending team have all 15 on the goalline?

That is, were there any of non-scoring team waiting at halfway or elsewhere.

Quite often we say this prevents a charge, but it may also be myth or not directly covered by law.

BTW this happens quite often with unfit players at the level I ref, I disallow charge to expedite. I guess ,by law, if the kick is not good, we should allow another attempt on a charge.

 

[Pegleg]

Why are you blaming an assessor? The original post mentioned a coach or mentor.:hap:
Anyway we are called Match Observers nowadays. (Even that is likely to change.)

The OP mentions "his assessor/mentor/coach." Please attribute accurately. What every you want to call him he was wrong! The role is clearly indicated as the role of an assessor / adviser in these parts.

 

[Taff]

The "assessor / mentor / coach" was wrong, but if it helps, I think I know where the myth comes from. I'll put £10 on it, that it's 9.B.4

If the opponents balls up the charge and the kicker misses, eg they charge too soon like Ireland did against the All Blacks, the conversion is retaken but the opponents cannot charge the 2nd time.

9.B.4
If the kick is unsuccessful, the kicker may take another kick and the opposing team is not allowed to charge.

 

[Dixie]

The "assessor / mentor / coach" was wrong, but if it helps, I think I know where the myth comes from. I'll put £10 on it, that it's 9.B.4

If the opponents balls up the charge and the kicker misses, eg they charge too soon like Ireland did against the All Blacks, the conversion is retaken but the opponents cannot charge the 2nd time.

9.B.4
If the kick is unsuccessful, the kicker may take another kick and the opposing team is not allowed to charge.

Taff beat me to it. This is my view as well

 

[Dickie E]

Another thing that may have happened here. Did the offending team have all 15 on the goalline?

That is, were there any of non-scoring team waiting at halfway or elsewhere.

Quite often we say this prevents a charge, but it may also be myth or not directly covered by law.

BTW this happens quite often with unfit players at the level I ref, I disallow charge to expedite. I guess ,by law, if the kick is not good, we should allow another attempt on a charge.

I've never heard of this nor seen it happen.

IMO if you've got big fat wheezers on halway then the gazelles can still charge as long as they commence from their goal line.

 

[Rushforth]

9.B.4 The opposing team
(a)
All players of the opposing team must retire to their goal line and must not overstep that line until the kicker begins the approach to kick or starts to kick. When the kicker does this, they may charge or jump to prevent a goal but must not be physically supported by other players in these actions.

Sanction: (a)-(c) If the opposing team infringes but the kick is successful, the goal stands.

If the kick is unsuccessful, the kicker may take another kick and the opposing team is not allowed to charge.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

I've never heard of this nor seen it happen.

IMO if you've got big fat wheezers on halway then the gazelles can still charge as long as they commence from their goal line.

By law the wheezers are wrong.

Rushforth printed the applicable law. Kinda the chicken/egg first thing.

 

[Camquin]

The wheezers are indeed wrong, but are they material?

Frankly, if a gazelle like winger has run in 80 metres, I am not holding up the game while a fat prop crawls back behind the dead ball line and then have to wait until they get back to half way before their sides kicker takes the restart. I am happy for them to be out of the way.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

The wheezers are indeed wrong, but are they material?

Frankly, if a gazelle like winger has run in 80 metres, I am not holding up the game while a fat prop crawls back behind the dead ball line and then have to wait until they get back to half way before their sides kicker takes the restart. I am happy for them to be out of the way.

No not material, just fat.

The counter to that argument is for non scoring team to never retire to goali-line , just the fullback to charge the kick or quickly collect ball for a well rested pack and KO. Why retire at all?

where do you draw line for materiality? how many players? when do we apply law?

I suggest disallow charge in such situation

 

[SimonSmith]

An Assessor told me that the retreat back to the goal line was part of the punishment for shipping the score.

YMMV

 

[Dickie E]

The wheezers are indeed wrong, but are they material?

Frankly, if a gazelle like winger has run in 80 metres, I am not holding up the game while a fat prop crawls back behind the dead ball line and then have to wait until they get back to half way before their sides kicker takes the restart. I am happy for them to be out of the way.

NKW is not suggesting holding up the game, just preventing any charge.

I've not thought or heard of this before. There seems to be some basis in law but I am generally not an advocate of "if player A doesn't comply then I'll punish player B". Anyone else do this?

 

[FlipFlop]

If the trip back to the line, and then back to the half is too much for you, then by staying at the half means you get extra recovery time. So you benefit by not complying with the law.

So at the lower levels where this is more common, I will allow them to do that, but not allow the charge (under equity, not law, less pressure on kicker, but fatties get to rest more). Higher levels, I want the teams behind the posts.

 

[crossref]

I'd be wary of this approach - if you disallow the charge as a penalty for not retiring, then you have effectively given them options (retire and charge or don't retire and don't charge) and in doing so given them permission not to retire.

They may well decide its a great bargain - give up the right to charge (a virtually pointless activity anyway) and they can gather on the half way line planning a rapid restart.