[Law] Clarification 1 "021

Flish


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
1,520
Post Likes
351
Location
Durham
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Agree, if the ball is dead, or effectively dead, and no quick tap then why not, just like I’d let them make subs, get everyone set, and restart when ready.
 

thepercy


Referees in America
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
923
Post Likes
147
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
Referee and CMO

Team Red have been awarded a penalty. A YC card has been off the field for 12 minute. (Due to continuation of play.) Assuming no quick penalty has been taken, team Red would like to bring on their YC. They want to:-
A.) Take a kick for touch. yes
B.) Take a shot at goal. yes
C.) Opt for a scrum. yes
D.) Tap and run with the ball. yes, but not quickly, if they go quickly then the YCed player waits for the next opportunity to come on, it's their prerogative
 

thepercy


Referees in America
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
923
Post Likes
147
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
(Note - I wouldn't actually know what they were going to do, unless they volunteered it, as I wouldn't ask)

Why wouldn't you ask them what they are planning on doing if its relevant?
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,804
Post Likes
3,145
Why wouldn't you ask them what they are planning on doing if its relevant?

well I wouldn't rule it out, but I can't think of any situations where it's relevant.

and there is a downside.

- perhaps he is watching the oppo and deliberately trying to keep his options open - or trying to to deceive the oppo as to what he is about to do ? Me asking him to announce what he is going to do isn't fair

- or what I ask him, he says touch, the oppo and I all then relax, and he sees that and kicks it across the field to the winger to score ... then I have made a problem for myself, the oppo might naturally feel I have somehow gotchad them,

TBH - I don't really see any situation where I need to ask?
 
Last edited:

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,032
Post Likes
1,775
[LAWS]26. A Player who is a replacement shall not be entitled to take a kick at goal until a passage of play has taken place since that Player took to the field of play.[/LAWS]

i think we have had some clarifications on this - if the 10 is taken out by an act of foul play (or Blood, or HIA) then his replacement IS allowed to come on and take the PK at goal.

is that sepcifically the 10, or any person that may have been the goal kicker ? and if it happens in the firsrt minute,, how does the ref at community level 2know" who the goal kicker is?

Im not being sracy here - genuinely interested.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,804
Post Likes
3,145
is that sepcifically the 10, or any person that may have been the goal kicker ? and if it happens in the firsrt minute,, how does the ref at community level 2know" who the goal kicker is?

Im not being sracy here - genuinely interested.

I dunno, but I think I would use my common sense/instinct and would trust the captain. Especially if it is indeed the 10.

and anyway - if it was the first few minutes of the game how likely is it that their best kicker started on the bench ?


The converse is much more likely : the undisputed kicker is taken out, replacement wants to kick. Would anyone really refuse permission ?
 
Last edited:

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,410
Post Likes
461
I must admit I’d be reluctant unless I knew for certain it was permissible. Very critical decision. I don’t think a ref at my usual level would allow it unless he/she was certain. As things stand with my knowledge of the situation I can only refer to the regulations. That is a definitive that the ref can show any coach in writing.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,804
Post Likes
3,145
I must admit I’d be reluctant unless I knew for certain it was permissible. Very critical decision. I don’t think a ref at my usual level would allow it unless he/she was certain. As things stand with my knowledge of the situation I can only refer to the regulations. That is a definitive that the ref can show any coach in writing.

Yes.
I feel sure there was some guidance on this, but I can't find it..so
 
Last edited:

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,410
Post Likes
461
Apart from perhaps one person from the southern hemisphere it looks as if we have a considerable amount of consensus and that referees would allow a YC to return at a penalty if the non-offending side want to make the return. I must admit I am slightly disappointed by the number of responses because it was a genuine question to try to gauge what degree of consistency we have.

Now can we look at a similar situation where we have the non-offending side wanting to make a replacement.
Team Red have been awarded a penalty and want to make a replacement. Assuming no quick penalty has been taken, team. They want to:-
A.) Take a kick for touch.
B.) Take a shot at goal. (Not by the replacement in RFU land because it is not allowed.)
C.) Opt for a scrum.
D.) Tap and run with the ball.

What would you do or expect the referee to do? Anything different to the YC return?
 
Last edited:

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,804
Post Likes
3,145
For me it's the same: I would let them make a replacement (and then , of course , so can blue)

again I wouldn't be asking them what they are going to do (can't see the point seeing as they are entitled to change their mind anyway) but I would warn them before they made the replacement, that the replacement can't kick for goal
 
Last edited:

Jz558


Referees in England
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
386
Post Likes
132
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Same reply as Crossref - I would allow the replacement in all 4 cases (as I would also for the YC scenarios).
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,073
Post Likes
2,345
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
I seem to be going along with everyone else.

If it's your penalty and you don't take the quick tap then you can make substitutions, bring on YC cards, etc (subject to RFU regulations, only two subs at one time, can't take a kick at goal as first action, etc)...AND so can the other team. Your penalty, your decision to slow the game down or not.

If it's the offending team (not your penalty) then you can't do any of those things unless the other team decide to first. i.e. its their prerogative to go quickly and you can't do anything to try and slow that down.
 

Rich_NL

Rugby Expert
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
1,621
Post Likes
499
If it's your penalty, you can make the choice. If a YC is 9'50 in when the penalty is given, he can't come back on. If it's 10'10 he can, and play however he likes.

If you're bringing players on/off, no quick taps.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,804
Post Likes
3,145
If it's your penalty, you can make the choice. If a YC is 9'50 in when the penalty is given, he can't come back on. If it's 10'10 he can.
.

that's an interesting one, though. If they think for 15s and then ask to make a substitution, you'll say yes and stop the clock at 10.05. And then they say - while we are doing the replacement, can the YC player also come on now? It's 10.05 ?


Although I think you are probably right to say no. It's clear and reasonable to take it from time of the PK
 
Last edited:

Rich_NL

Rugby Expert
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
1,621
Post Likes
499
Yep, that's the point the ball went "dead".
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,804
Post Likes
3,145
Yep, that's the point the ball went "dead".

well that's the nub of this isn't it -- when you blow whistle for PK ball is still alive (as they can quick tap). The ball only goes properly dead (for a replacement) when you say it's dead.
 
Last edited:

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,032
Post Likes
1,775
and here's a thought...

a YC is for ten minutes. so notwithstanding waiting as per the above for 10 minutes to actually pass etc ... it equally seems inequitable for a YC player and team to be off/doqwn for eg 15 minutes just because the ball never is treated as "dead" between 10:01 and 15:00 just because of PKs, FKs, QTIs, quick throw ins to formed lineouts etc etc etc. There has to become a time where its only reasonable to permit the YC player to return. Otherwise as suggested before, it is only scrums and a 2nd half kick off whereby the ball is NOT zombie like and the game coud restart as soon as the team awarded <the next action> choose to do so ... which could optherwise preclude an oppo YC from returning
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,804
Post Likes
3,145
and here's a thought...

a YC is for ten minutes. so notwithstanding waiting as per the above for 10 minutes to actually pass etc ... it equally seems inequitable for a YC player and team to be off/doqwn for eg 15 minutes just because the ball never is treated as "dead" between 10:01 and 15:00 just because of PKs, FKs, QTIs, quick throw ins to formed lineouts etc etc etc. There has to become a time where its only reasonable to permit the YC player to return. Otherwise as suggested before, it is only scrums and a 2nd half kick off whereby the ball is NOT zombie like and the game coud restart as soon as the team awarded <the next action> choose to do so ... which could optherwise preclude an oppo YC from returning

i agree - I remember going to a talk with Wayne Barnes once - I think the quesiton was about bringing a player back on while the QTI was still a possibility - and he said something like: presumably the YC player is standing there on the touchline, bursting to go on? why no just just catch his eye and beckon him on?


in other words: frequently it's perfectly possible to bring back a YC player at a zombie ball moment if you want to. Might take literally 0.5s .

Of course you have to be consistent and fair to both teams, so that's the potential problem .
 

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,410
Post Likes
461
and here's a thought...

a YC is for ten minutes. so notwithstanding waiting as per the above for 10 minutes to actually pass etc ... it equally seems inequitable for a YC player and team to be off/doqwn for eg 15 minutes just because the ball never is treated as "dead" between 10:01 and 15:00 just because of PKs, FKs, QTIs, quick throw ins to formed lineouts etc etc etc. There has to become a time where its only reasonable to permit the YC player to return. Otherwise as suggested before, it is only scrums and a 2nd half kick off whereby the ball is NOT zombie like and the game coud restart as soon as the team awarded <the next action> choose to do so ... which could optherwise preclude an oppo YC from returning

You are right didds. I was going to tell the story about a YC four years ago which lasted 20 mins and 17 seconds. This arose because eleven minutes had gone but the referee refused to let the YC back on (non-offending) at a penalty and insisted waiting until the lineout. They missed touch and a combination of continuous play and other penalties led to the 20 mins+. He was only allowed back on when a scrum was opted for. Even then the opposition objected!
 

thepercy


Referees in America
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
923
Post Likes
147
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
Apart from perhaps one person from the southern hemisphere it looks as if we have a considerable amount of consensus and that referees would allow a YC to return at a penalty if the non-offending side want to make the return. I must admit I am slightly disappointed by the number of responses because it was a genuine question to try to gauge what degree of consistency we have.

Now can we look at a similar situation where we have the non-offending side wanting to make a replacement.
Team Red have been awarded a penalty and want to make a replacement. Assuming no quick penalty has been taken, team. They want to:-
A.) Take a kick for touch.
B.) Take a shot at goal. (Not by the replacement in RFU land because it is not allowed.)
C.) Opt for a scrum.
D.) Tap and run with the ball.

What would you do or expect the referee to do? Anything different to the YC return?

For me, if its REDs prerogative to play the ball, Red can request the sub, affectively asking for the referee to make the ball dead. Then the referee makes the ball dead, both sides can enjoy the privileges of the ball being dead, YCs return, subs can be made, water can come on.
 
Top