Clarification 1 2012

[TNT88]

I thought this one was interesting. http://www.irblaws.com/EN/clarificationdetail/year/2012/84

The FFR request a clarification for the following:

Following a kick ahead, the ball goes over the goal line and whilst it is still up in the air, a player places his hand on it and grounds it. However, before this player grounds the ball, his feet are in touch.

We would like to know:

• Whether Law 22.4 (g) applies only to a ball already on the ground before it is touched down or other situations as described above;
• Whether the situation, as described above, is equivalent to “carrying the ball”.

So the definition of "not carrying the ball" they use implicitly implies that the ball must be on the ground before any player applies pressure.

It is counter intuitive and not the way I used to think of it. But a clear guide for us none-the-less. Will be one to keep in mind when touch judging.

 

[smeagol]

I thought this one was interesting. http://www.irblaws.com/EN/clarificationdetail/year/2012/84



So the definition of "not carrying the ball" they use implicitly implies that the ball must be on the ground before any player applies pressure.

It is counter intuitive and not the way I used to think of it. But a clear guide for us none-the-less. Will be one to keep in mind when touch judging.

I don't really see what is counter-intuitive. In order to be in touch and score a try in this manner, the ball must be on the ground.

 

[TNT88]

Well the law says "not holding onto" the ball. So my instincts would say that a player chasing a grubber kick can sort of "slap" the ball down to the ground in order to score the try. (when there is 30cm between the ball and the ground). Because he never got hold of the ball.

But seems like they have found problems with that sort of definition of "holding", so I don't have a problem with the clarification.

 

[Robert Burns]

If a player does that they are guiding the ball to the ground, and as such, have control.

 

[Davet]

It's about simultaeneous occurrences.

If the "try" and the "TiG" happen at the same time, preference is awared to the try. The ball must be grounded for a try to happen.

If the player is TiG and the ball is in the air when he touches it then clearly no try is scored, and at that first contact the ball is dead TiG.

 

[Robert Burns]

I assume if you knock the ball, you'd be fine, but by guiding it down you are in control and therefore have put the ball in touch.

 

[smeagol]

I assume if you knock the ball, you'd be fine, but by guiding it down you are in control and therefore have put the ball in touch.

I'm confused by this. My interpretation is that if the ball is not on the ground, and the player has a foot in touch, the moment he plays at that ball he has brought it into touch. The laws regarding being in touch and playing at the ball do not apply in the in-goal, if I am reading that correctly.

 

[Robert Burns]

For the scoring of a try you are correct.

For the knocking of a ball that isn't touch-in-goal, by a player that is, I would argue that having the complete opposite would lead to confusion & inconsistency.

However, you may be right due to it stating for certain definitions, "The touchline or Touch-In-goal line" but for the knocking back into play, says only Touchline.

Not that I've EVER seen someone stand touch-in-goal and try to knock the ball back before it crossed the plane of touch. So quite possibly it's completely irrelevant.

 

[Davet]

Not that I've EVER seen someone stand touch-in-goal and try to knock the ball back before it crossed the plane of touch.

I assume that coaches have secret cells for those that attempt it, where - Soviet style - such "insane" individuals are held for their own protection.

 

[Robert Burns]

Most are probably hand picked for the Scotland Head Coach role.

(I am a Scot for those who are unaware).

 

[OB..]

If a player does that they are guiding the ball to the ground, and as such, have control.

You can control the ball with your foot, but you are certainly not holding or carrying it (the FA banned that in 1863).

 

[OB..]

My interpretation is that if the ball is not on the ground, and the player has a foot in touch, the moment he plays at that ball he has brought it into touch.

That is definitely NOT the case. Touching the ball does not put it in touch unless it has crossed the plane (or you catch it).

 

[The Fat]

That is definitely NOT the case. Touching the ball does not put it in touch unless it has crossed the plane (or you catch it).

The clarification makes it clear that a player whose hand is in contact with the ball (that is off the ground) and is guiding it to the ground is contrary to 22.4(g) and is therefore deemed to be carrying the ball. It would therefore follow that if a player who is in touch is "guiding" the ball to ground (and is deemed to be carrying the ball as per the clarification) has caused the ball to be "in touch" as per Davet's and Robbie's posts IMO.

 

[OB..]

The clarification makes it clear that a player whose hand is in contact with the ball (that is off the ground) and is guiding it to the ground is contrary to 22.4(g) and is therefore deemed to be carrying the ball. It would therefore follow that if a player who is in touch is "guiding" the ball to ground (and is deemed to be carrying the ball as per the clarification) has caused the ball to be "in touch" as per Davet's and Robbie's posts IMO.

You used the phrase "plays at the ball". Law 19 specifically allows a player to "kick or knock the ball, but not hold it". Merely coming into contact with the ball therefore does not put it in touch. Putting a hand on the ball and guiding it to the ground would seem to be a sort of halfway house between knocking the ball and holding it.

 

[Robert Burns]

It does, but it also specifically says touchline in that law, which runs from goal line to goal line, it does not seem to apply to touch in goal, as other laws that do specify both.

Is this another case of an omission in the law, or an intended difference? (As per the grounding whilst being touch in goal, does it apply to the dead ball line?)