[In-goal] clarification please
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[LAWS]Law11
1. A knock- on may occur anywhere in the playing area.[/LAWS]
The playing area includes in-goal.
So its a defending scrum on the 5m line.
I think what confuses players and spectators here is that because you can't have a scrum in-goal, they then assume (wrongly) that you can't have a knock-on in goal either.
It's the same as offside; it's amazing how many players think that they cannot be offside while in-goal.
Also there is clarification that law 21 (old law 22) that a knock on in or into the in goal results in a scrum NOT a 22m drop out.
You cannot have a scrum, ruck or maul in the in-goal, so those offside lines disappear, but you can be offside in general play.
You cannot have a scrum, ruck or maul in the in-goal, so those offside lines disappear, but you can be offside in general play.
ChuckieB
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It was never so that a knock on into the in goal by the attacking side was a 22m drop out?
Fortunately the new laws do clarify that any knock on or throw forward apart from at the lineout will result in a scrum in the scrum zone at the point closest to the infringement. Scrumzone is clearly set out in the laws so, as Phil E states, that would be the 5m line.
Sadly no longer mention, or so I can tell, of Scrum option for a knock on into touch. But of course these 2018 laws are simplifications not changes. What's it to be?
Christy
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what about if defenders pick up ball from inside in goal & kick it out over dead ball line / touch in goal line / or even touch it down in goal
would you allow advantage to of been played { even if you didn't shout advantage } & offer a 22 kick out to defending team .
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No, advice I have been given is that we don't play advantage in-goal..although I can't back that up in law it's what we have been instructed.
Since in-goal is a bit of a maverick area (with no tackles, rucks etc allowed) this seems eminently sensible.
ChuckieB
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Certainly not.
Making the ball dead effectively neutralises the opportunity to gain any ultimate territorial advantage in continuing play or any tactical advantage of playing the ball as they wish. Having to kick it out is not really playing it as you wish.
It's about the best argument I might give in the absence of a specific law referencing it.
I don't think it is wrong to allow advantage to be played for in goal situations until the possible advantage options are closed down.
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Well that can't be right , what if the defender knocks on in goal and an attacker falls on the ball to make it dead. That's clearly a try.
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Well, we established in a recent thread that following an knock on, adv is over when they kick it !
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Christy
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not if kick is kicked under pressure ..
the referee can conclude no advantage got , there fore we go back for infringement sanction .
Until about 40 years ago, a knock-on into in-goal was a 22 drop out, whereas an attacking knock-on inside in-goal was a 5 metre scrum. This was seen as an anomaly, so the law was changed. The outcome from a knock-on can never be a drop out.
I know we do not normally play advantage, but a side getting mullered in the scrum, might want it.
Generally we do not call advantage over if the non-offending side has the ball behind where the mark for the knock on would be made.
So if the defenders chose to play on, when would you call advantage over before they cross the 5m line.
Generally we do not call advantage over if the non-offending side has the ball behind where the mark for the knock on would be made.
So if the defenders chose to play on, when would you call advantage over before they cross the 5m line.
One answer would be : when they freely make a clean kick (under no particular pressure yada yada)
ChrisR
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What if the attacking team knocks-on in/into the defenders goal, the defenders pick up the ball and make three passes to the wide side, the referee call "advantage over!" and the defenders ground the ball.
Now you have a 22DO following a KO into goal.
This argument will not die because there are people like myself (and crossref) who see the fallacy in how the laws are being applied. We have agreed to referee to the rule of the majority (at least, I have) but there are flaws in the logic and the 'old guard' simply don't want to hear it.
Now you have a 22DO following a KO into goal.
This argument will not die because there are people like myself (and crossref) who see the fallacy in how the laws are being applied. We have agreed to referee to the rule of the majority (at least, I have) but there are flaws in the logic and the 'old guard' simply don't want to hear it.
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menace
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Im not sure how you could think that a knock on in goal and the ball has not cleared in goal (past the gain line) even after 3 passes is 'advantage over'?!! Youd be the only one...or two.
What if in the third pass after you call advantage over the defender drops it and attacker grounds it? Would you seriously say that the defenders gained an advantage either tactical or territorial and award the try!!
I can see what you're trying to say...but I think there are far too many variables for the refereee to assess at that time to determine and hope when advantage was really gained to then allow a 22 do....just neater and a time saver to just play the scrum and get on with the game and it can be applied consistently for all referees. Advantage is to be real and material...not to be played hoping it might accrue.
ChrisR
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Menace, my post is just making a point of how the current practice is turning the law on it's collective head.
Do we agree that a 22DO is of greater advantage to the defenders than a defending 5m scrum? If we don't then we don't have much to discuss.
In the situation where the defenders pick up the attackers KO and continue play in their own goal. If they ground the ball before the referee calls "Advantage over" then they can't gain the 22DO advantage (under current practice) but if the referee calls "Advantage over" and the ground the ball then they get the 22DO.
Doesn't that strike you as back asswards? It does me.
Do we agree that a 22DO is of greater advantage to the defenders than a defending 5m scrum? If we don't then we don't have much to discuss.
In the situation where the defenders pick up the attackers KO and continue play in their own goal. If they ground the ball before the referee calls "Advantage over" then they can't gain the 22DO advantage (under current practice) but if the referee calls "Advantage over" and the ground the ball then they get the 22DO.
Doesn't that strike you as back asswards? It does me.
