Consult the captain?

Balones

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I think we have to be careful about confusing things with the other thread on stopping the clock for issuing cards etc.
What should be absolutely clear is that there is no law or set down protocol in relation to issuing cards in relation to stopping the clock or ‘telling’ the captain about a card. Every situation is different.
You can tell the captain the reason for the card while you are setting up for the penalty/restart. Explain very briefly what it was for if need be and if not clear. Also if the captain asks. If you want a change in behaviour from the team then by all means have a longer talk. By the very action of issuing a card you are involving the captain because he will probably need to reorganise his team. My experience is that most captains want to get on with this rather than have the referee tell them why a card was issued. What more involvement do you want or need? As I and MW have stated previously, this is not a matter for ‘consultation’. The decision has been made. By all means at down time perhaps have a further ‘chat’ about the incident that brought about the card so as to enhance or develop the working relationship with the captain.

What I and my colleagues are looking at/for are unnecessary stoppages and if the referee is being too much the centre of attention.
 
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Jarrod Burton


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"Consulting" the captain at a card can be useful to take the heat out of a moment - think violent or dangerous foul play, but excessive chat can slow the game, especially when a quick restart is better for the non-offending team. If I've had a formal chat with the captain already and the penalty is clear and obvious and not a potential flash point, why bother calling the captain out when they know what is going to happen? Get the player off and play going.
 

didds

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So no thoughts/opinions on the query regarding "you are still on a team warning captain" versus "the clock is reset from a team warning once a card is issued under it" ??

didds
 

Balones

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So no thoughts/opinions on the query regarding "you are still on a team warning captain" versus "the clock is reset from a team warning once a card is issued under it" ??

didds
Very valid question. And a difficult one to respond to succinctly within a forum situation. It is one that is occasionally raised at local society meetings.
I can’t remember a team not responding to some degree to a card issued after a general team warning.
The very general advice is not to be trigger happy after a team warning and make sure it really is a card offence and not something that is clearly accidental.
Warning still in place after card? In general yes, but this has to be tempered with not spoiling the game for all concerned. A reminder that the team warning is still in place would not go amiss. Hopefully the first card will have been returned before you issue the next and subsequent.
You do not ignore the fact that a YC offence is a YC offence whenever it hapoens.
 

Jarrod Burton


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I'd have to agree with Balones around teams generally responding to a non-violent offence YC. If the team is still on a YC warning, I'd be telling the captain about it during a down time period or a following PK - I don't like the excessive use of YC as a management tool in a short time frame, it makes you look like a overbearing twat and seems like a hammer being used to crack a walnut.

The two times I've been forced into a second YC for similar offences in a short time (less than 10 phases) were clumsy, one I painted myself in a corner with the language I'd used and the second was a highly charged game that had a brawl early on and ended up as a dumpster fire when I got too whistle happy in trying to prevent flashpoints during extended rucks.
 

Flish


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I always involve the captain at cards, I don't see me as having anything to lose, if involving him (ie having him listen to my explanation and reason) gets the message across further, and I get a response then bingo. If he choses to ignore me or not act on it, fine, nothing has changed.

As to does it reset the count after a yellow, the black and white answer is no, and I'll remind the captain of this, however in my head the answer is probably yes, a little bit. I'll probably stop thinking "next one's a card" and I'll be conscious that there could be more more cards if no adjustment. As referenced above I learnt very quickly not to back myself up against a wall
 

crossref


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I always involve the captain at cards, I don't see me as having anything to lose, if involving him (ie having him listen to my explanation and reason) gets the message across further, and I get a response then bingo. If he choses to ignore me or not act on it, fine, nothing has changed.l

I think what you potentially have to lose is
1 it holds up the non offending team, and allows the offending team time to reorganiz
2 it can make it al la bit about you
 

Flish


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I think what you potentially have to lose is
1 it holds up the non offending team, and allows the offending team time to reorganiz

I see your point, but not something I've 'felt' in any of my games (L9 mostly but moving up) so prepared to admit this may change, and if so I will have to change with it

2 it can make it al la bit about you

Hmm, that probably depends on the individual personality, I don't think I come across that way, but ..... at this point it is about me to a point, I have an expectation of how the game is to be played, I've explained it in PMB, and have set a standard during the game so far, this team are not playing to that standard and are being sanctioned. I'm reaffirming this to the captain - then it goes back to being about him and his team and what they do next.
 

Rich_NL

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Agree with crossref.

You have a 40m line break on the wing and the blue fullback jumps into a tackle that slides high, and pushes/pulls the red winger into touch by his head 10m out. The whole crowd watching gasps, the fullback stands up looking sheepish and holding his hands up. There was a covering defender, so it's not a penalty try, but you have three red players itching to take the penalty and the blue backs still getting back into position.

Meanwhile, the captain blue 2 is still standing up and getting untangled and reoriented from the scrum on the centreline. Are you going to call him over to explain the card?

On the other hand, if after a warning for hands in the ruck you spot a player discreetly batting it backwards, no-one else will know what the yellow is for, and communication may be important to clarify that you haven't lost your marbles.
 

didds

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Id suggest that a YC on a team warning probably is NOT what the first example would include/is aimed at typically

didds
 

Flish


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Agree with crossref.

You have a 40m line break on the wing and the blue fullback jumps into a tackle that slides high, and pushes/pulls the red winger into touch by his head 10m out. The whole crowd watching gasps, the fullback stands up looking sheepish and holding his hands up. There was a covering defender, so it's not a penalty try, but you have three red players itching to take the penalty and the blue backs still getting back into position.

As per Didds, not really the same scenario, and there's nothing stopping them going quick if that's what they want, I'll not take that away from them, I can issue the card later.
 

SimonSmith


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There aren't very few absolutes.

It depends on the game, the issue, and dynamics within the management of the players
 

beckett50


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So no thoughts/opinions on the query regarding "you are still on a team warning captain" versus "the clock is reset from a team warning once a card is issued under it" ??

didds

The issuing of a YC for a repeated team/player offence in no way resets the clock with regard to whether another YC will be shown.

In this case the #16 was off-side at a breakdown - and had slowed the ball down. If another player was to commit the same offence within the red-zone why would/should he avoid the same sanction? Likewise if there was a high tackle that, using the issued protocol, warranted a :noyc: then I would show it (but, FWIW, that would be a "clock off, captain and #x to me please" event)

I recall a talk when I was a junior ref given by a top international referee - although back then he was only doing Tier 2 matches. His talk was about the impact of :noyc: on the match and the PK. He put up a slide showing the PK and clearly showed that after a YC the PK did decrease because player behaviour modified. His mantra was "Get the cheats off the park early" - quite harsh but the sentiment is obvious.

I'm curious @didds; do you only reduce a team to 14 players irrespective of PK or foul play offence?
 

SimonSmith


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I had three yellows today, all player stupidity.

The last one, I was glad I had the captains with me. Was calling the players together to give them the "8 minutes left, calm down. I didn't see it and I don't need you two chipping behind me"

I was two words in when White 18 eyeballed his opposite number and said "I'm going to ****ing knock you out before the end of the game". I looked at the captain, and he shrugged....
 

Pinky


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So no thoughts/opinions on the query regarding "you are still on a team warning captain" versus "the clock is reset from a team warning once a card is issued under it" ??

didds

Didds , for me, I take into account that YC if the team infringes again, but it depends on the next offence if it is a card. If I have warned a team, next pen here is yellow(I would not normally do that) and team gives away anothe pm, then yellow, I am not likely to YC at the next penalty unless the offence warranted, e.g. by being cynical.
 

Jarrod Burton


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Didds , for me, I take into account that YC if the team infringes again, but it depends on the next offence if it is a card. If I have warned a team, next pen here is yellow(I would not normally do that) and team gives away anothe pm, then yellow, I am not likely to YC at the next penalty unless the offence warranted, e.g. by being cynical.

Agreed. A PK for a "minor" infringement after a YC, but another card if its cynical.
 
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