[Law] Contest in the air or deliberately knocked dead

[CrouchTPEngage]

Red attacking and are 10 metres out from blue's goal line. A high kick is coming down between the posts and 1 metre into the in goal. Red 14 and Blue 15 leap into the air to contest the ball. Red 14 has judged it perfectly and appears to have 2 hands under the ball. Blue 15, appears in a weaker position but manages to reach out above his head with only one hand and taps the ball backwards. It rebounds down to the ground and the backwards momentum given by Blue 15s tap makes the ball roll backwards over the dead ball line. Note , it is NOT knocked directly dead or directly into touch.

So do I give a 22DO or a penalty try for deliberately knocking the ball dead .?

 

[Decorily]

Red attacking and are 10 metres out from blue's goal line. A high kick is coming down between the posts and 1 metre into the in goal. Red 14 and Blue 15 leap into the air to contest the ball. Red 14 has judged it perfectly and appears to have 2 hands under the ball. Blue 15, appears in a weaker position but manages to reach out above his head with only one hand and taps the ball backwards. It rebounds down to the ground and the backwards momentum given by Blue 15s tap makes the ball roll backwards over the dead ball line. Note , it is NOT knocked directly dead or directly into touch.

So do I give a 22DO or a penalty try for deliberately knocking the ball dead .?

22 I hope!

 

[OB..]

Red attacking and are 10 metres out from blue's goal line. A high kick is coming down between the posts and 1 metre into the in goal. Red 14 and Blue 15 leap into the air to contest the ball. Red 14 has judged it perfectly and appears to have 2 hands under the ball. Blue 15, appears in a weaker position but manages to reach out above his head with only one hand and taps the ball backwards. It rebounds down to the ground and the backwards momentum given by Blue 15s tap makes the ball roll backwards over the dead ball line. Note , it is NOT knocked directly dead or directly into touch.

So do I give a 22DO or a penalty try for deliberately knocking the ball dead .?

[LAWS]9.7 A player must not:
a.[...]
b. Intentionally knock, place, push or throw the ball with arm or hand from the playing area.
c. [...][/LAWS]
Is that what he did (in your opinion)?

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

Well, I am sure Blue 15 was making an effort to disrupt Red's attempted catch and score. Blue 15 only had a palm of 1 hand near the ball and managed to tap it backwards before Red took it into his arms.
My query is, because it bounced BEFORE it rolled dead, I cannot give a penalty right ?
Contrast that with, say, the ball being 1 metre from the dead ball line, and Blue taps the ball directly dead : In this case, I have seen a penalty try given for knocking the ball dead. ?
OR is it one of those occasions where we must assess "intent" ? Did he intentionally knock the ball dead or did he intend to knock it back in order to re-gather the ball from the ground ?

 

[didds]

surely dead is dead?

or is this another rewrite cockup, or just a nuance over the word "directly" ?

didds

 

[Rich_NL]

Are you saying that if a player intentionally threw the ball to touch but it bounced before the line that that would be fine? I don't think so.

If it looked like a fair challenge,22DO. If it C&O looked like intentionally killing the ball, PT.

 

[crossref]

Well, I am sure Blue 15 was making an effort to disrupt Red's attempted catch and score. Blue 15 only had a palm of 1 hand near the ball and managed to tap it backwards before Red took it into his arms.
My query is, because it bounced BEFORE it rolled dead, I cannot give a penalty right ?
Contrast that with, say, the ball being 1 metre from the dead ball line, and Blue taps the ball directly dead : In this case, I have seen a penalty try given for knocking the ball dead. ?
OR is it one of those occasions where we must assess "intent" ? Did he intentionally knock the ball dead or did he intend to knock it back in order to re-gather the ball from the ground ?

Bounce makes no difference
Yes you have to decide on intention

 

[beckett50]

One hand in the air shows little intention to catch the ball, but to disrupt the actions of the Red player.

If the Blue players hand tapped it backward, rather than the ball bouncing of the hand, then IMO you need to award a PT and YC

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

One hand in the air shows little intention to catch the ball, but to disrupt the actions of the Red player.

If the Blue players hand tapped it backward, rather than the ball bouncing of the hand, then IMO you need to award a PT and YC

But , if that happens near half-way, tapping the ball backwards with one hand is a good tactic to attempt to re-gain possession.
SO, I guess , that same technique cannot be risked in the in-goal area. Seems strange.

 

[crossref]

Perhaps depends on how close you are to the DBL
In many pitches there is plenty of room to safely tap back

 

[didds]

One hand in the air shows little intention to catch the ball, but to disrupt the actions of the Red player.

but that in itself is not illegal - if a one handed tap out of red's hands that doesn't go forward, doesn't physically impede/challenge red in the air etc, and doesn't go dead (eg a defender touched it down, or grabbed it, ran the length of the field and scored etc) there would be no illegality. So a one handed effort is no more indicative of illegality, than a two handed flap is that deliberately knocks the ball dead that also takes red out in the air and causes him to land on his head which would be illegal.

etc

didds

 

[Camquin]

You are always permitted to contest possession.
Because it is a contest in the air, neither play could know exactly wehere the ball would end up.
So I cannot say 100% he deliberately knocked the ball dead.
Therefore for me it is play on, no try 22DO.

 

[damo]

You would have to see it to give a definitive opinion. However unless you are able to say that he deliberately knocked it dead, it's a 22 DO.

What you describe sounds like a legal contest of the ball which resulted in it going dead. It sounds like he lacked the necessary mens rea for a Penalty. A player is not offending if he is just reckless as to whether the ball might go dead.