conversion kick at goal

Bungle


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This happened in my game last week so I'm interested to get your take on it.

Try scored, kicking tee arrives, kicker is preparing and hasn't commenced his run up but has been doing the impression of Jonny Wilkinson with his bum sticking out while looking as if he is squeezing a bar of soap with his hands.

2 - 3 of the opposition start advancing. "Go back" I say. They do. I say "lets start again" to the kicker who comes out of the JW position and then re-sets himself after 15 secs. I don't disallow a charge on the basis of 'we are starting again' (no problems this time) but the kick misses.

Now - here is the issue. I believe I managed the situation and used equity to re-set everything back to the original neutral/normal state of affairs (which from my law school days I recall is the aim of equity where possible). I did not believe anyone was disadvantaged by managing the situation as above. The kicker had ample time to reprepare, I said 'lets start again' and he took it in his own time. When the kick missed there were no protests from either the kicker or his captain.

In discussion with the assessor, he says that I did not apply the law correctly in that I should have barred them from charging AND as he had missed I should have let the kicker have another go regardless of my earlier actions. In my respectful way, I debated this by arguing that I had made clear that we went back to the original position and no one was disadvantaged - I felt his approach was actually unfair to the non-kicking side given the context. Time wasn't a pressure for the kick as I said 'lets start again'. Maybe the kicker could get unnerved?

So - should I have adopted this literal strict standard required by law 9 B3 (a) or was my management of the situation in applying equity sufficient and more sensible? I can think of parallels throughout the laws when this dilemma comes up so I suppose it is also a wider philosophical point.

The game was a L8.

On reflection I think I could have been clearer to the kicker about the implications of 'lets start again' i.e. spelling out no time pressure. Any other thoughts welcome.
 

Phil E


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I see where you are coming from.

I have always envisaged, charge begins early, or they shout as they do it.
Kicker panics and kicks, but misses.
Kick again, no charge allowed.

You sort of combined the two actions, but I would have no problem with it as the charge didn't affect the kick. He is getting two bites of the cherry if he gets another kick.

Sounds (to me) like an assessor applying the law without management, which we are always told off for :chin:

Will be interested in what certain people have to say about this.
 

OB..


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It sounds to me as if the opponents were clearly in the wrong, so I don't really understand why they should get away with it. There is a risk that they will now feel free to charge early in future.
 

Phil E


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Sorry, missed this bit on my first read through.

I don't disallow a charge

If you have sent them back for charging early, then I think you have to disallow any further charge. They have forfeit their right to charge by doing it early.

Maybe this is the bit the assessor had a problem with?
 

Ciaran Trainor


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I probably would have sent them back and said no Charge hoping he would kick the goal.
If he misses it would be one of those oh Sh*t moments.
 

Simon Thomas


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This was a L8 match, so my assessor expectation would have been a second replacement kick, without any charge by the defenders, as per Law. This is serious rugby with experienced players.

What you did was too relaxed in poor management and with confused communication in my view from your description. It sounds as if he sort of continued the first kick with a 'reset', but you did not make it clear it was a second kick attempt - hence assessor thinks he should have had a secoind go.

There is confusion, did he complete the first kick (which failed, and as they charged he gets a second go), or did your reset and his continuation constitute the second kick atempt ? It could be interpreted both ways, so be very clear - "defenders charging early" - "second kick with no charge defenders". If he misses that one, no further one.

I don't see where equity comes into it, or Phil's justification for your hybrid solution.

For U14s on a Sunday morning, perhaps more management and explanation.
 

Phil E


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I don't see where equity comes into it, or Phil's justification for your hybrid solution.

My confusion.

I thought he said "lets start again and you can't charge this time".
Which would have equated to the second kick (as you said).

I had missed the bit in the explanation that said he DID allow them to charge the second time.
 

Dickie E


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preese to put brain into gear, before engaging mouth (or typing finger) :norc:
 

Phil E


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preese to put brain into gear, before engaging mouth (or typing finger) :norc:

...............or selecting "insert image" :nono:
 

Dickie E


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Bungle,

if the kicker did anything that a reasonable opponent may interpret from 20-odd metres as commencing his approach -shufflling feet, step back or sideways, scratch balls, etc - I would do the same as you.
 

Bungle


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Thanks - all very useful comments. I think Simon has spelled out a good justification for the assessor point of view (which is much better and certainly clearer than my assessor managed).

I take the point about it being too relaxed management even at L8 and as I am a 'work in progress' to L7 it is one of those things I will have to be strict about. I am well aware we have to get stricter as we go up in levels we can assume players know the laws, have good techniques etc so cheating is more obvious; it is just I hadn't really twigged it as an issue in this area of the game. I will do from now on.

This flags up an issue also for my society training and 1-1 training with Referee coaches - I've never had a session on kicks at goal, positioning, what to watch for etc. Plenty on scrums, line out etc.

Again, cheers all for your input
 

Jacko


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Glad this thread came up - had an early charge for the first time in years at Sedgley Park at the weekend. The crowd didn't like me re-setting with no charge, but it was good to know I was getting it spot on! Still fluffed his second kick, possibly due to the disgruntled fan muttering "Don't worry if you miss - this ref'll give you another chance anyway".
 

Bungle


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Well after another incident recently I realised you have to know the law insitinctively for those once-every-five-years occurances. Am still waiting for a drop goal taken after a free kick without it going dead, played by an opponent, tackle taking place etc to show my law knowledge :biggrin:

I remember Owens doing a game at Leeds (European Cup I think) where he allowed a second kick on the basis of shouting by the oppo. IIRC it was crucial as the kick went over and Leeds won. Caused a talking point at the time but certainly he was 100% correct in law.
 

crossref


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I remember Owens doing a game at Leeds (European Cup I think) where he allowed a second kick on the basis of shouting by the oppo. IIRC it was crucial as the kick went over and Leeds won. Caused a talking point at the time but certainly he was 100% correct in law.

i saw a ref this season allowing a second kick because the coach shouted at the key moment. I am not sure if that is right in Law, but it seemed to me right in equity.
 

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I remember Owens doing a game at Leeds (European Cup I think) where he allowed a second kick on the basis of shouting by the oppo. IIRC it was crucial as the kick went over and Leeds won. Caused a talking point at the time but certainly he was 100% correct in law.


It was Leeds V a French side. But, it was in France! A brave but correct call.
 
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