Deliberate knock forward Vs juggle

Stu10


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That is why I didn't use the term "knock-on".

If we are going to paint a a person with the whistle in a corner with the thing about that terminology being in the knock-on section, then that's an open door to any forward throw as long as it never hits the ground or another player.

Its a deliberate knock forward. Throw forward if you prefer.
I'm confused now... are you saying that it was not a knock-on, but you would blow for a forward pass? Alternatively, are you saying it was neither a knock-on nor a forward pass, but something in the middle, that isn't covered by the laws... a knock forward? Bottom line, would you have awarded the try?

presumably not as he passed backwards to himself. not forwards. And the ball didnt pass over an opponents head, but a team mate's.
However, I would penalise for crossing in that example!
 

crossref


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I'm confused now... are you saying that it was not a knock-on, but you would blow for a forward pass? Alternatively, are you saying it was neither a knock-on nor a forward pass, but something in the middle, that isn't covered by the laws... a knock forward
A knock forward is covered by the Laws .. it's 11.3. See post #1 !
 

Stu10


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A knock forward is covered by the Laws .. it's 11.3. See post #1 !
I felt I addressed this in my earlier post, though my interpretation might be wrong... the use of "knock forward" in 11.3 is IMHO some sloppy wording, especially considering this is a term without a definition. I feel law 11.4 follows on directly from 11.3 and makes it clear that both 11.3 and 11.4 are referring to a knock-on, which is a defined action.
 

crossref


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That's quite a stretch

11.3 A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.

Which term do you think needs a definition?
 

Locke


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which is clearly what marchant did.
Then under what caveat in law do we permit any situation where a player attempts an interception but “knocks it forward” first and then catches it?
 

crossref


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Then under what caveat in law do we permit any situation where a player attempts an interception but “knocks it forward” first and then catches it?
Well, if the player attempting a catch, fumbles and regathers that's ok

11.4 It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession


but Marchant wasn't trying to catch the ball, he was knocking the ball in field


11.3 A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty
 

Phil E


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It's the difference between a deliberate knock down as opposed to a knock on, during an attempted interception.

It's a judgement call, as are many of the laws in our game. Sometimes we will judge it differently.
 

didds

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Then under what caveat in law do we permit any situation where a player attempts an interception but “knocks it forward” first and then catches it?
C&O deliberate.
unless you (fair enough) believe what Marchant did was a pure accident when trying to genuinally control the ball while about to stand in touch-in-goal. You might believe so of course?

didds
 

Balones

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Then under what caveat in law do we permit any situation where a player attempts an interception but “knocks it forward” first and then catches it?
If it looks like a duck …………….
 

Rich_NL

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If he'd been tackled after knocking it:
- penalty against tackler for tackling off the ball
- scrum to tackler for knock on
- penalty to tackler for intentional knock on

What's your call?

(My view: he's attempting to bring the ball under control, tackle is legal, scrum for accidental knock on)
 

crossref


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If he'd been tackled after knocking it:
- penalty against tackler for tackling off the ball
- scrum to tackler for knock on
- penalty to tackler for intentional knock on

What's your call?

(My view: he's attempting to bring the ball under control, tackle is legal, scrum for accidental knock on)
First offence was the deliberate knock forward
 

Locke


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C&O deliberate.
unless you (fair enough) believe what Marchant did was a pure accident when trying to genuinally control the ball while about to stand in touch-in-goal. You might believe so of course?

didds
I do believe it was deliberate. If the whole thing had taken place clearly in the field of play, you would still call it a penalty? It is my sense that this scenario happens very regularly and we’re all happy to let it play on as long as the player regathers before it hits the ground or another player.
 

didds

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I do believe it was deliberate. If the whole thing had taken place clearly in the field of play, you would still call it a penalty?

Yes i would.
and that deflection aside it SHOULD have been called this time.
If that isn't a C&O deliberate knock forward I really struggle to think of what could be.
 

Volun-selected


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If the ref had blown for it and Marchant then claimed “I was *trying* to knock it backwards” would it still be deliberate? (With the benefit of slow motion replies it looks pretty damn deliberate to me…)

And of course this is complicated in that it was an intelligent and entertaining play - that “champagne rugby” that all the commentators love to wax lyrical over.

But, since I’ve said I think it’s deliberate I’ve got to follow the law and regardless of the fuss and I’d have to award a penalty.

However, if in knocking the ball Marchant had bounced it over a defender and then regathered to score, I wonder if we’d all see it in a different light?
 

Ciaran Trainor


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Many years ago my home town RL team had a very skillfull ball handling loose forward.
One of his tricks when receiving the ball standing was to throw the ball up vertically to himself which had the effect of freezing the defence and as the ball came down he would slip it left or right to an onrushing colleague or throw the dummy and slide through a gap. Occasionally you could say the ball went forward but never over an opponent or colleague. I did try it a few times, never worked for me😜
 

BikingBud


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I'll place this response here as @crossref wishes to conflate 2 different scenarios and appears unwilling to accept them as distinct and separate.Screenshot 2022-10-11 at 21.45.01.png

I saw no reason to discuss this further as @Stu10 had provided what was to me a very well reasoned discussion in Post 12 and reiterated within Post 14 that a knock on had not occurred.

And that whilst some may feel that there is scope for discussion in Law 11.3 I am supportive of @Stu10's perspective, hence my "Like".

If you also look at possession, he was attempting to bring it under control and it did not touch the ground or another player before the original player caught it.

  • Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
  • Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it under control.
Furthermore, we may find that clarification is sought for interpretation of those particular laws but currently I find a level of awareness, skill, speed of thought and reaction that we should be encouraging in the game and therefore have no issue with it.

However, at the risk of cross posting myself, I would much prefer the resources to be focussed on a scrupulous review and clarification of the extremely dangerous and fully supported jumping to catch a ball that allows reckless players to endanger themselves and others with impunity.
 
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