Didn't witness foul play.

anbocmorrua

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Looking for some advice please. I'm wondering what my options are when there's an incident I didn't see.

In a recent juniors game a red player slapped blue in an off the ball incident I didn't see, as I was following play and the incident happened behind me. Touch judge confirmed the incident. I agreed with the touch judge, who was also the red coach, that the red player should be substituted. I'm wondering what my options might be if something happens that I didn't see and it's brought to my attention. How do you more experienced refs manage the situation? Especially when offered "witness statements" from the touchline as the only corroborating "evidence"?
 

crossref


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if you are part of an official team of 3- with appointed Assistant Refs (AR) then you can act on your AR's advice.

otherwise nothing - you can't sanction what you didn't see -- and you shouldn't be consulting with unofficial TJ's on anything other than touch and posts.


You can have a word with both captains and tell them you will be alert for anything else (and be alert!)
 

Phil E


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If you haven't seen it there's not really a lot you can do, other than keep an eye out and start looking over your shoulder more regularly.
Which is something referees tend to do if they feel the game is getting a little heated.
You can't act on hearsay.

Having said that, in your example where it was a red coach reporting one of his own players, I think you did the right thing.
 

chbg


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Except that I would replace 'can't' with 'shouldn't'. Last season I did act on a claim of racial abuse that I hadn't personally heard, as my calculation was that I had a moral responsibility to act on very credible witnesses. The RFU Disciplinary panel did not throw it out. But I was driven by the specifics of the circumstance; it has not become my default position at all!
 

Dickie E


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First question: what country are you reffing in? The situation in the OP varies by country
 

Stu10


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Except that I would replace 'can't' with 'shouldn't'. Last season I did act on a claim of racial abuse that I hadn't personally heard, as my calculation was that I had a moral responsibility to act on very credible witnesses. The RFU Disciplinary panel did not throw it out. But I was driven by the specifics of the circumstance; it has not become my default position at all!

From RFU "MATCH OFFICIAL ABUSE – A GUIDE FOR REFEREES" :

IF A MATCH OFFICIAL IS MADE AWARE OF ANY ALLEGATION OF DISCRIMINATORY LANGUAGE BEING USED IN A MATCH, IRRESPECTIVE OF WHETHER THE MATCH OFFICIAL THEMSELVES HEARD THE COMMENT, IT MUST BE REPORTED TO THE CB DISCIPLINE SECRETARY AFTER THE MATCH WHO WILL SEEK ADVICE FROM THE RFU HEAD OF DISCIPLINE IN RESPECT OF CHARGES.
 

crossref


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Except that I would replace 'can't' with 'shouldn't'. Last season I did act on a claim of racial abuse that I hadn't personally heard, as my calculation was that I had a moral responsibility to act on very credible witnesses. The RFU Disciplinary panel did not throw it out. But I was driven by the specifics of the circumstance; it has not become my default position at all!
what did you do chbg ? Did you issue the RC that you would have done if you heard it? or did you report it after?

it must have been a difficult situation for you. who was witness?
 

chbg


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I did issue a RC - it occurred on the far side of the scrum, close to a noisy sideline; separate members of the team reacted. The team captain had earned my respect before then, and, morally, I could not leave someone who would use racist language to stir up the opposition (the only Fijian) to stay on the pitch. That was why I decided as I did. During the Disciplinary, the team members' testimony was obviously persuasive. It could of course have been a club citing, but might not have been carried through when all was done and dusted. I did expect the club defence to be that I should not have issued the RC, but that didn't happen, and apart from an Adviser saying "I wouldn't have done that", there was no reference to it.
 

Dickie E


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Unfortunately, then, you're bound by their rules, as silly as they are.

eg if Wayne Barnes is out for an afternoon stroll and offers to run touch for you, he can't provide you any support except stick his flag up when the ball goes into touch. Crazy.
 

crossref


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Unfortunately, then, you're bound by their rules, as silly as they are.

eg if Wayne Barnes is out for an afternoon stroll and offers to run touch for you, he can't provide you any support except stick his flag up when the ball goes into touch. Crazy.
That's a bit misleading

In your country you would have the authority (on behalf of your society I assume) to appoint a bystander .. any bystander I assume? ..as an AR but I wouldn't have that authority

(I would have to call the appointments team, who would appoint WB as he happens to be a member of the society, but they would not instantly appoint, say, my mate belladonna off the internet, who they have never heard of)

In the OP scenario where the TJs are the coaches and weren't appointed by the ref, would you take their advice ?
 

Dickie E


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We have an AR qualification that club members, coaches, players, etc can and are encouraged to undertake. Once completed the qualified & accredited AR is then able to officiate without appointment and flag foul play, etc.
It would not be unusual to have an AR on 1 side and a TJ on the other
 

SimonSmith


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We have an AR qualification that club members, coaches, players, etc can and are encouraged to undertake. Once completed the qualified & accredited AR is then able to officiate without appointment and flag foul play, etc.
It would not be unusual to have an AR on 1 side and a TJ on the other
Welcome to this Saturday night for the Grand Final...
 

crossref


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We have an AR qualification that club members, coaches, players, etc can and are encouraged to undertake. Once completed the qualified & accredited AR is then able to officiate without appointment and flag foul play, etc.
It would not be unusual to have an AR on 1 side and a TJ on the other
Which seems sensible
But so .. you couldn't actually appoint a passing bystander without the qualification.. even if it was WB ?
 

Stu10


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I did issue a RC - it occurred on the far side of the scrum, close to a noisy sideline; separate members of the team reacted. The team captain had earned my respect before then, and, morally, I could not leave someone who would use racist language to stir up the opposition (the only Fijian) to stay on the pitch. That was why I decided as I did. During the Disciplinary, the team members' testimony was obviously persuasive. It could of course have been a club citing, but might not have been carried through when all was done and dusted. I did expect the club defence to be that I should not have issued the RC, but that didn't happen, and apart from an Adviser saying "I wouldn't have done that", there was no reference to it.
One of my concerns would be carding the correct person if you didn't witness it. How did you overcome this?
 

Dickie E


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Which seems sensible
But so .. you couldn't actually appoint a passing bystander without the qualification.. even if it was WB ?
If WB could reasonably demonstrate that he had at least minimum qualifications, then he'd be good to go
 

chbg


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One of my concerns would be carding the correct person if you didn't witness it. How did you overcome this?
He was specifically called out. You're correct, if it was just 'someone', then I couldn't/wouldn't have done much about it (probably limited to a word to their skipper, in whom I also had great trust).
 
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