[Law] Double movement?

[breako]

Ball carrier goes to ground 0.5 of a metre away from try line. Ball touches ground but immediately the tackled player reaches out and scores. So key points:
1. Ball touched the ground (or player on the ground)
2. Player reaches out immediately. No delay.

So is this a double movement or not?

 

[Taff]

Ball carrier goes to ground 0.5 of a metre away from try line. Ball touches ground but immediately the tackled player reaches out and scores. So key points:
1. Ball touched the ground (or player on the ground)
2. Player reaches out immediately. No delay.

So is this a double movement or not?

I would give that as a Try.

15.5 The tackled player
(b) A tackled player must immediately pass the ball or release it. That player must also get up or move away from it at once. Sanction: Penalty kick123

(c) A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately. Sanction: Penalty kick

(g) If a player is tackled near the goal line, that player may immediately reach out and ground the ball on or over the goal line to score a try or make a touch down

From what I've learnt from RR.com the key thing is whether the tackled player used his legs to propel himself forward. As long as he reached out with his arms (which is allowed) he's fine, but a commando crawl to get to the line isn't. And even though nearly everybody I know (including elite Refs) calls it "Double movement" bear in mind that the offence is "not releasing".

And bear in mind too, that if you DO decide that there is an offence (and give a PK) the mark is now 5m out from the goal line and not where the offence happened. It was changed at the beginning of the season IIRC.

 

[ChrisR]

15.5 The tackled Player
(c) A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick


(d) A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except forward, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Can anyone explain the part in red. That make no sense to me. So in the OP the try would be disallowed and the player punished with a PK for pushing instead of placing the ball.

 

[Dickie E]

15.5 The tackled Player
(c) A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick


(d) A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except forward, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Can anyone explain the part in red. That make no sense to me. So in the OP the try would be disallowed and the player punished with a PK for pushing instead of placing the ball.

A player can't push or slide the ball across the ground forwards. Would be considered to be deliberate knock on.

 

[The Fat]

15.5 The tackled Player
(c) A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick


(d) A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except forward, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Can anyone explain the part in red. That make no sense to me. So in the OP the try would be disallowed and the player punished with a PK for pushing instead of placing the ball.

Pushing the ball forward suggests a knock-on. That is, the ball is on the ground, the player is pushing the ball with their hand behind the ball and is therefore not holding the ball

 

[ChrisR]

Now explain to me how pushing the ball forward meets the criteria for a knock-on.

 

[ChuckieB]

Well it certainly precludes a try from being allowed and cements the case for a "Immediately reach out and place" as being the only acceptable option as regards a tackle before the line and a try.

 

[ChrisR]

Can you explain why the exception? What is the law-writer thinking? Why the difference?

 

[L'irlandais]

What makes rugby unique and a thinking man's game is that the ball must be passed backwards ( toward your dead ball line) to advance. It makes perfect sense that at the tackle the ball-carrier cannot place the ball toward the opposition's deadball line.
Á tackle cannot take place in goal, So the ball-carrier can place the ball in any direction in goal to touch down, since tackle law does not apply.
If the tackled player places the ball forward and touches down in goal then the exception comes into play. Although tackled on the field of play, he/she has managed to use The in-goal exception to their advantage.

 

[Pegleg]

What makes rugby unique and a thinking man's game is that the ball must be passed backwards ( toward your dead ball line) to advance. It makes perfect sense that at the tackle the ball-carrier cannot place the ball toward the opposition's deadball line.
Á tackle cannot take place in goal, So the ball-carrier can place the ball in any direction in goal to touch down, since tackle law does not apply.
If the tackled player places the ball forward and touches down in goal then the exception comes into play. Although tackled on the field of play, he/she has managed to use The in-goal exception to their advantage.

The bit underlined is not true. 15.5 (c) repeated below makes it perfectly clear that the ball can be placed in any direction

15.5 The tackled player
(b) A tackled player must immediately pass the ball or release it. That player must also get up or move away from it at once. Sanction: Penalty kick

(c) A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately. Sanction: Penalty kick

(g) If a player is tackled near the goal line, that player may immediately reach out and ground the ball on or over the goal line to score a try or make a touch down

 

[L'irlandais]

Fair point, the law allows it. Common sense on the other hand dictates you present the ball to your own camp.

 

[ChuckieB]

What makes rugby unique and a thinking man's game is that the ball must be passed backwards ( toward your dead ball line) to advance. It makes perfect sense that at the tackle the ball-carrier cannot place the ball toward the opposition's deadball line.
Á tackle cannot take place in goal, So the ball-carrier can place the ball in any direction in goal to touch down, since tackle law does not apply.
If the tackled player places the ball forward and touches down in goal then the exception comes into play. Although tackled on the field of play, he/she has managed to use The in-goal exception to their advantage.

Not quite the right logic in your statement although the outcome is effectively the same.

In goal, any placement is a touchdown, whatever the direction. A push becomes irrelevant.

Only relevant for a player coming up short , so if he can reach out and put it in any direction, that can also be forward thus allowing the possibility of a try.

If he were allowed also push the ball forward in any direction, if it did include forward, he might be permitted a scoring opportunity that the law makers have probably decided was one step too far and hence they specifically excluded forward to eliminate the possibility near the goal line. This is the only place it is likely to be of any interest and would matter. It then at least recognises the perfect last ditch tackle in some way!

 

[L'irlandais]

Sorry mate I was answering ChrisR, I didn't follow the double mouvement discussion. Placing rather than pushing.
My only logic was being tackled short of the line, so I don't think we are disagreeing necessarily.

 

[ChuckieB]

Sorry mate I was answering ChrisR, I didn't follow the double mouvement discussion. Placing rather than pushing.
My only logic was being tackled short of the line, so I don't think we are disagreeing necessarily.

Me neither

The original post was simplistic and left too much wiggle room anyway.

 

[Pegleg]

Fair point, the law allows it. Common sense on the other hand dictates you present the ball to your own camp.

Rugby players often fail to use common sense.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Yesterday I had a player reach out for try - ball hit the ground just short of the line. Player pushed the ball forward about 200mm on to the line. I penalised him for it and signalled holding on even though no one attempted to take the ball off him.

Told him he couldn't push the ball forward (he looked sceptical) and awarded the PK on the 5m line

 

[Hillbob]

Á tackle cannot take place in goal, So the ball-carrier can place the ball in any direction in goal to touch down, since tackle law does not apply.

Why can´t there be a tackle In Goal? Am i missing something? However i think the difference must be made between pushing the ball and placing the ball

 

[Dickie E]

Why can´t there be a tackle In Goal? Am i missing something? However i think the difference must be made between pushing the ball and placing the ball

[LAWS]15.1 Where can a tackle take place
A tackle can only take place in the field of play.[/LAWS]

 

[Hillbob]

Thanks. Must have overlooked that.

 

[L'irlandais]

Hellô Hillbob,
Welcome to the forums. So how's Rugby in Hessen?

Players can still bring the ball carrier to ground in-goal, just not called a tackle.
Similar to scrum, ruck and maul laws in-goal, they may look like a scrum, ruck or maul momentarily, but different laws cover their management once the ball goes over the goal line.