Drop goal attempt touched by Defender and goes dead

[Ian_Cook]

The word "touch" translates to "tacto" in Spanish, and "touched" (past tense) translates to "tocado"

There is a saying in Spanish with comes from the board game "checkers" (or "draughts" if you are English.)

"dama tocada, dama jugada"

This is from the rule that says once a player has touched a piece, they must play that piece, and is a common expression that is equivalent to our saying "there is no going back"

I would surmise that "introducida" is more likely to mean something like "taken", which would definitely infer intent.

 

[Enrique]

Not having gone to a language dictionary to try and deduce the difference between the words "jaguda" or "introducia", I will concede that I do see a difference.

"Introducia" seems correspondent to introduce. When used in the context of this Law I would assume that there is necessarily some intention on the part of the player that the ball goes in the direction of the in-goal.

As for the word "jugada", as it is not used in the Law, it has no relevance. For all I know this "played", as a translated word, may be only used in relation to a musical instrument or a card. I admit, there is a similarity to our word "juggle" which is seen as a type of "play" but of a specific variety involving multitasking a number of objects.

Should I be asked to translate back into English, and I would use "taken into the ingoal" or "put into the ingoal" for "introducida al ingoal". "Introducida" is the participle of "introducir" (transitive verb). An authoritative dictionary (Real Academia Española, Diccionario de la lengua española XXII ed., 2002), defines "introducir" as, inter alia, "to put something (or to make something enter) into something else" and gives some examples: "Introducir la mano en un agujero, la sonda en una herida, mercancías en un país" (i.e., to put a hand into a hole, to put a catheter into a wound, to introduce goods into a country). As you see from the examples, "introducir" implies a succesful, but not necessarily wilful, attempt of bringing something into something else (you could put your hand in a hole by accident). Therefore, from the Spanish LOTG a drop goal attempt touched by defender and gone dead should IMHO imply a 5m scrum for the attacker.

Anyways, I will ask the question to a couple of old sea wolves on Monday, and bring it into the monthly technical meeting on Monday June 7th.

About "jugada", you're right. It means "played", in the sense of e.g. "la pelota es jugada" == "the ball is played". "Jugada" is also a noun: the action of playing, or the action of a player during his turn of a game (e.g., in chess, English "Anand's move was e4" would be translated as "la jugada de Anand fue e4".

Hope this helps.

 

[Enrique]

There is a saying in Spanish with comes from the board game "checkers" (or "draughts" if you are English.)

That also applies to chess: "piece touched, piece moved".

 

[Dickie E]

This is from the rule that says once a player has touched a piece, they must play that piece, and is a common expression that is equivalent to our saying "there is no going back"

I wonder if there is a difference between accidental frottage & intentional frottage and, if so, how can you tell? :chin:

 

[Enrique]

I don't know Spanish but from a discussion I had with a Mexican co-worker I don't belive it is quite as diverse a language as English.

What we discussed was word variety and the topic was "flags". I pointed out that in English we have words for a diverse variety of flags (Banner, Pennant, Ensign, etc.) and he told me that in Spanish there was only the one word. Perhaps, when the Laws are translated into Spanish they are a "victim" of this difference in our languages.

Hmmm... sorry for disappointing your co-worker :hap:, but Spanish also has a number of names for those: bandera (banner), pendón (pennant), enseña (ensign), pabellón (usu. a naval or military flag), banderín (a little, usu. triangular flag, as those we sometimes see on top of poles and call "flags" as per Law 1.5, or those with the clubs´colors that the teams used to exchange before their first match when the tries were worth 3 points), banderola (a little flag, but rectangular), gallardete (a decorative flag; in the Navy, the flag on top of the main mast), estandarte (standard), emblema (akin to English "emblem"), divisa, oriflama, gonfalón... and I´m sure I forget a couple or three.

 

[OB..]

For me, "introducing" the ball to the in-goal could include deflecting it unintentionally, whereas "playing" it implies intention. So yes, the Spanish version does (potentially) have a different meaning.

The word "jugada" is used elsewhere, and is defined as follows:
Jugada: La pelota es jugada cuando es tocada por un jugador

This is a literal translation of the English version.

 

[DRMOCHO]

I think that refereeing is a matter of facts. So, the question is: what team introduce the ball into the in goal? Therefore... 5 scrum. I suggest not to take care of "intentions" unless the law says it clearly... Try to make it easier...

 

[JJ10]

This forum is great. My "homework" after today's game was to find out the answer to this one.

I gave a 5 metre scrum with no complaint from either side but it did feel a bit of an odd one. Not deliberately played into in goal so it almost feels harsh against defending side. My first L9 game and it was one of those "ahhhh bugger" moments. Looks like I got it right though. Neither coach, nor my advisor could say for certain what the correct call was.

Thanks to all who have posted - I'll try to avoid Spanish for the time being!

 

[Ian_Cook]

This forum is great. My "homework" after today's game was to find out the answer to this one.

I gave a 5 metre scrum with no complaint from either side but it did feel a bit of an odd one. Not deliberately played into in goal so it almost feels harsh against defending side. My first L9 game and it was one of those "ahhhh bugger" moments. Looks like I got it right though. Neither coach, nor my advisor could say for certain what the correct call was.

Unlike Rugby League, we don't have a "played at" law....
[LAWS]RL Laws, Section 9 - Para 7
In all aspects of play, a player who does not deliberately play at the ball (eg. ricochet or rebound) will not be disadvantaged by a consequent restart of play when the ball has gone dead or into touch.[/LAWS]

So, in Rugby League, if the ball touches a player and he makes no attempt to play at the ball, the contact with the ball doesn't count.

For examples, a kick by Blue incidentally strikes a retiring Gold defender on the back...

1. It does not restart the tackle count if a Blue player regathers the ball

2. If the ball went into touch of into in-goal and is made dead, then however the game is restarted, it will be as if the ball never touched him.

Rugby Union is the opposite of this. There is no distinction between ball touching player and playing touching ball; contact with the ball is absolute.

In example 2 above, if the ball goes into in-goal of Gold's back,and its made dead, its a 5m scrum, Blue to throw in.

 

[Adam]

Sorry, so if the ball then goes through the posts, why can't the drop goal be awarded?

I thought 9.A.2 (a) would cover it?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Sorry, so if the ball then goes through the posts, why can't the drop goal be awarded?

I thought 9.A.2 (a) would cover it?

We're talking about an attempted dropped goal that misses the posts after the ball touches or it touched by a defender and then goes dead. (5m scrum or drop-out ?)

If the attempted dropped goal goes between the posts and above the crossbar then it is successful and is awarded regardless of whether it was touched by a defender.

 

[JJ10]

If the attempted dropped goal goes between the posts and above the crossbar then it is successful and is awarded regardless of whether it was touched by a defender.

Amen. I'd love to see the look on the kicker's face when not awarding that! :wtf:

 

[Adam]

We're talking about an attempted dropped goal that misses the posts after the ball touches or it touched by a defender and then goes dead. (5m scrum or drop-out ?)

If the attempted dropped goal goes between the posts and above the crossbar then it is successful and is awarded regardless of whether it was touched by a defender.

Amen. I'd love to see the look on the kicker's face when not awarding that! :wtf:

Just double checking, thanks.

 

[Dickie E]

Unlike Rugby League, we don't have a "played at" law....
[LAWS]RL Laws, Section 9 - Para 7
In all aspects of play, a player who does not deliberately play at the ball (eg. ricochet or rebound) will not be disadvantaged by a consequent restart of play when the ball has gone dead or into touch.[/LAWS]

So, in Rugby League, if the ball touches a player and he makes no attempt to play at the ball, the contact with the ball doesn't count.

For examples, a kick by Blue incidentally strikes a retiring Gold defender on the back...

1. It does not restart the tackle count if a Blue player regathers the ball

2. If the ball went into touch of into in-goal and is made dead, then however the game is restarted, it will be as if the ball never touched him.

Rugby Union is the opposite of this. There is no distinction between ball touching player and playing touching ball; contact with the ball is absolute.

In example 2 above, if the ball goes into in-goal of Gold's back,and its made dead, its a 5m scrum, Blue to throw in.

Agree. This makes life simple as same applies to touch, 22, goal line, TIG & deadball line.