End of match on Penalty.

Donk93953

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
69
Post Likes
3
I'm still bit confused as to what I am seeing as the interpretations of the end of the match on a recent visit to the USA.

On last second of the clock ticking, Referee awards penalty try for off-sides during a goal line battle.

Is there a mandatory restart or is the match over?

I've seen it called both ways over the weekend at university level matches.
 

Stu10

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
420
Post Likes
195
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
IMHO, if the try is awarded before the clock hits 80, and it is a penalty try, therefore no conversion, I believe there should be a subsequent restart.
 

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
2,508
Post Likes
649
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Game over. A Penalty Try is a form of Try not Penalty. What is the next action? A Kick off and not a Penalty.
 

chbg


Referees in England
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
1,353
Solutions
1
Post Likes
337
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Game over. A Penalty Try is a form of Try not Penalty. What is the next action? A Kick off and not a Penalty.
That's correct if time is already up. But not if it isn't.

One answer to the OP is "who is in charge of the clock"? It is for the referee to decide when the Penalty Try was awarded. As soon as it has been, as there is no Conversion attempt for a period of up to 90 seconds, if there is time left on the clock then the re-start occurs, even if the actual re-start occurs after 80 minutes.
 

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
2,508
Post Likes
649
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
The question was: "Is there a mandatory restart or is the match over?" There is no madatory start. I'm not looking to "Dance on pin heads". We've just had a PT (always a potential "flash point") If the PT is awarded with 1 second on my watch as soon as I look at the watch to see if there is time then time will be u pto all intent and purpose.

Playing with the 1 second factor is a bit chopperesque for me.
 

Stu10

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
420
Post Likes
195
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
The question was: "Is there a mandatory restart or is the match over?" There is no madatory start. I'm not looking to "Dance on pin heads". We've just had a PT (always a potential "flash point") If the PT is awarded with 1 second on my watch as soon as I look at the watch to see if there is time then time will be u pto all intent and purpose.

Playing with the 1 second factor is a bit chopperesque for me.

If the score line is settled and doesn't matter at that point then I won't argue with Marc's approach; but if there is time left on the clock and there is less than 7 points difference, then I believe the correct thing to do is to have the restart and allow both teams a final opportunity to decide the outcome over a full 80 minutes.
 

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
2,508
Post Likes
649
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Well never say never. What if the difference is 13 points? 7 may mean a bonus point. Or the sides who conceded the try are on 3 tires and one away from a BP?

However, Let's be honest. For the vat majority of us we are highly unlikely to know we awarded the Penalty try with 1 second to go are we? Really?

The "penalty" bit is a missnomer. We have awarded a "TRY" the question is in reality do you restart after you award a try with 1 second on the clock. Under normal conversion conditions yo uwill not because the ball will be kicked after time is up and you will be in a realistic position to check the time of the kick. But In the PT situation but the Time the whistle is blown and the arm goes out are you really going to know that there was 1 second left?

What about a declined kick after a try? Do you restart if the decline is communicated before time is up? Would yo ube able to assess whether it was declined before or slightly after that "last second" expired?

Great in TV land they have a TMO to get it spot on. But let's be realistic.

Perhaps the point of the OP would be better served by the following re-write:

With the clock showing 82:43, the referee awards penalty try (the reason is not important).

Is there a mandatory restart or is the match over?

The answer surely is No.
 

Stu10

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
420
Post Likes
195
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
Speaking for myself, I still only ref age grade, so never a big crowd and lots of noise... my watch beeps when the count down gets to zero, and I have never failed to hear it go off thus far. If I had awarded the try before I hear the beeping then I know the try was awarded with time to spare... I would then check my watch... if we are in the last minute and there is a significant point difference then I would blow for the end (I've been involved in many games with a 40 points difference at this point, it's a friendly, and the losing team are looking pretty downbeat), if it's close then I would play on appropriately. If it was a league game where points difference may be important, or a bonus point is up for grabs, I would play on until the full 80 minutes.

Looking at this from the other side, if the full 80 minutes was not up, why would you end the game early. Do you have some other place to be? Are you averse to the game playing out to 83 minutes until there is a stoppage to end the game? Is there a valid reason not to restart the game if there is time on the clock?
 

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
2,508
Post Likes
649
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Well I'm still trying to answer the OP which asked , basically do yo uend the game on a PT or r do you treat it as a form of Penalty?

On the other point. We are talking about 1 second.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
the answer to the OP question is a simple one : as Marc says, a PT is a form of try, not a form of PK, so if time has expired game ends.

The question: under what circumstances would you / should you end a game when (to the best of your timekeeping ability) there is time still to play?

We have discussed that plenty of times. In my mind I only end early if
- I am confident that both sides want to end (it's their game, and sometimes they just want to stop)
- Or I think a fight is likely .. so it's for everyone's good.
 

Volun-selected


Referees in America
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
256
Post Likes
101
Location
United States
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
We have discussed that plenty of times. In my mind I only end early if
- I am confident that both sides want to end (it's their game, and sometimes they just want to stop)
- Or I think a fight is likely .. so it's for everyone's good.
Generally, if there is time left then I play. The only time I've stopped early is when I'd just had to wade into the middle of a 10+ player brawl. 2 minutes left of the first half so just read them the riot act and ended the half early to let them all cool down. Second half was still physical but much less foul play, and the only card that day was for a deliberate knock-on that stopped a line break.

(This is still a match that troubles me as I'm not sure if I just got a volatile mix of overly aggressive players who just tried to out-alpha each other, or I just completely failed to manage it. Did make me seriously question if I should be in the middle.)
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
(This is still a match that troubles me as I'm not sure if I just got a volatile mix of overly aggressive players who just tried to out-alpha each other, or I just completely failed to manage it. Did make me seriously question if I should be in the middle.)
realistically - it was likely to be a bit both, with a large dollop of bad luck as well. When things go badly wrong it's normally a mixture of stuff.
all we can do is learn and move on
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
13,628
Post Likes
1,755
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
And of course there is the mandatory card that goes with a PT. Does that chew up more time too?
 

Volun-selected


Referees in America
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
256
Post Likes
101
Location
United States
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
would the card not be done with the clock off though?
That’s got me thinking… I’ve never stopped the clock on a PT before. Normally I’d just go through the whistle-signal-card-update the scorecard with the clock running.

In the dying seconds…? If I’ve whistled before the end of half signal then I’d still trot back for a restart and make sure the teams know we’re in the red. If the offense occurred just after the end of half then it’s whistle-signal-card and half over.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
i think that
- you don't stop the clock
- if the offence was prior to 80mins, then you restart
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
11,134
Post Likes
1,331
That’s got me thinking… I’ve never stopped the clock on a PT before.
Its not the PT award that "needs" (?) the clock stopped

its the

"And of course there is the mandatory card that goes with a PT. Does that chew up more time too?"

didds
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
13,628
Post Likes
1,755
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
- if the offence was prior to 80mins, then you restart
at the risk of pinhead stuff, it's the awarding of the PT that matters, not the occurrence of the offence. Could be relevant if the ref is a slow-coach getting under the posts:

A half ends when the ball becomes dead after time has expired unless:
A scrum, lineout or restart kick following a try or touchdown, awarded before time expired, has not been completed and the ball has not returned to open play. This includes when the scrum, lineout or restart kick is taken incorrectly.


Interestingly, this law uses the word touchdown and doesn't mention other ways of making the ball dead in goal. The phrase "following a try or touchdown" is redundant.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
at the risk of pinhead stuff, it's the awarding of the PT that matters, not the occurrence of the offence. Could be relevant if the ref is a slow-coach getting under the posts:

[
Good point, but would be poor refereeing I think to allow full time to occur because you were ambling
 

Volun-selected


Referees in America
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
256
Post Likes
101
Location
United States
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
at the risk of pinhead stuff, it's the awarding of the PT that matters, not the occurrence of the offence. Could be relevant if the ref is a slow-coach getting under the posts:
When, legally, is it “awarded”? I’ve always treated that as when the offense occurs and as such the time I eat up to the whole whistle+signal under the posts+card player(s)+update my scorecard song&dance doesn’t count. If there’s a complex or contentious situation to work out with touch then I would stop time.
For the PT at the death scenario, if the penalty offense occurs just before the end of the half, then even if the song&dance takes us into the red I’d still give the restart.
 
Top