Ending the game vs “coaching”

smeagol


Referees in America
Joined
Apr 20, 2012
Messages
672
Post Likes
76
Location
Springfield, IL
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
I had a collegiate conference game that featured a number of newer players on both sides.

At 79:01, Blue scores. After the conversion, Blue is down 1. As I jog back to the center at 79:55 I tell both teams “next dead ball ends it.”

Blue catches the restart, but 2-3 phases in is penalized for obstruction.

Red player with the ball asks for time. I repeat what I said, “next dead ball ends it.” Red player then kicks the ball directly to touch (no tap).

I call for the lineout, and now other Red players are confused as to why. I reiterate that we have a lineout, which Red wins, followed by a hoof into touch to end it.

Immediately after the game, I explained to the Red player that from the penalty, he should have tapped it, then hoofed it into touch, and the light bulb switched on. The Blue coach (who was clear across the field) approached me as well, and we had a laugh as I explained what happened.

Where I am unsure is whether such “coaching” would be kosher if, for example, this was a friendly or if the scores were much further apart.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,632
Post Likes
3,030
Red player with the ball asks for time. I repeat what I said, “next dead ball ends it.” Red player then kicks the ball directly to touch (no tap).
so the next dead ball didn't end it.

so for me what you said wasn't really accurate - and I think you do need to be accurate.

if you wanted to give them as little help as possible, you could have said 'time has expired'

or if you wanted to give them a little bit of help you could have said 'if you kick it straight out it's a line out, if you tap and kick it out, the game ends'
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
11,830
Post Likes
1,662
Im with BOTH Decorily and CR.
And certainly agree that the use of "dead ball" terminology is at best confusing.
 

smeagol


Referees in America
Joined
Apr 20, 2012
Messages
672
Post Likes
76
Location
Springfield, IL
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Appreciate the advice

I probably should stick to "time is up" due to the law change, didn't think about it until this scenario.

or if you wanted to give them a little bit of help you could have said 'if you kick it straight out it's a line out, if you tap and kick it out, the game ends'
In more lenient circumstances (ie blowout or friendly), I do use this phrasing. I did also clarify this to the winning side afterwards, I just didn't want backed into a corner during the game.

In the post-game convo, I did also have to explain
9.7b A player must not Intentionally knock, place, push or throw the ball with arm or hand from the playing area.
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,004
Post Likes
2,279
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
I used to say "last play", then of course there was a penalty, so it wasn't the last play.
Now I just say "clocks in the red".

Always learning, always adjusting.
 

chbg


Referees in England
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
1,462
Solutions
1
Post Likes
425
Current Referee grade:
Level 7
I used to say "last play", then of course there was a penalty, so it wasn't the last play.
Now I just say "clocks in the red".

Always learning, always adjusting.
I'll try that - probably better than my "in overtime".
 

SimonSmith


Referees in Australia
Staff member
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
9,277
Post Likes
1,389
"We're in the last minute"

"We're in injury time"

It's up to them what they do with that information.
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,010
Post Likes
2,066
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
"We're in the last minute"

"We're in injury time"

It's up to them what they do with that information.
yeah, I agree. There are several events that can happen that will prevent a game from ending after time has expired and it would be onerous to list every one to both captains. eg:

- penalty kick to touch (as previously mentioned)
- lineout throw not straight
- kick off (aka restart after a score) that doesn't go 10 or goes out on full

Are there others?
 
Last edited:

Stu10


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
815
Post Likes
418
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
If I'm asked for time I'll say something like "my watch says 2 minutes" or "we are on 38 minutes", and they can interpret that how they want, but I don't believe I'm making any commitment as to when the game will actually end (I'm giving them the same info they would get from a stadium clock).

If you want to be "clever", if a player questions continued play at a penalty in the red, something along the lines of "I'm sure you know the law that we can't end on a penalty, right?"... will the player admit they don't know the laws or just go with it?
 

Stu10


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
815
Post Likes
418
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
yeah, I agree. There are several events that can happen that will prevent a game from ending after time has expired and it would be onerous to list every one to both captains. eg:

- penalty kick to touch (as previously mentioned)
- lineout throw not straight
- kick off (aka restart after a score) that doesn't go 10 or goes out on full

Are there others?
The change to penalty kick to touch was intended to reward the team with the ball, which I'm OK with, it's a positive move. This doesn't apply to a penalty that goes touch in goal, nor a free kick, because possession is lost in these two instances.

Others are all incorrect/incomplete restarts (not straight at lineout, reset scrum, incorrect restart kick).
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,632
Post Likes
3,030
If a player asked me about time I will tell him what's on my watch (exactly as Stu says, as if my watch is a stadium clock)
so I would say 'one minute left' or 'time has expired'
(I actually really like the phrase 'clock is in the red' and plan to use that going forward)

if a player asks me a Law question I would just answer it as clearly as I can -. 'If I kick it out, is that the end of the gam?'
'straight out gives you a line out, but if you tap it first then kick it out, the game ends '
 
Last edited:

Stu10


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
815
Post Likes
418
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
I know a lot of referees that refuse to give a straight answer when asked how long is left close to the end of a game... I don' really understand why and it appears to me (and players) like the ref is not being transparent, which I can't see being a good thing.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,632
Post Likes
3,030
I know a lot of referees that refuse to give a straight answer when asked how long is left close to the end of a game... I don' really understand why and it appears to me (and players) like the ref is not being transparent, which I can't see being a good thing.
i agree - I can't see any reason why I wouldn't just tell them the answer.

My only caveat is that I do say 'about 3 minutes', rahter than, say, '3 minutes and 14 seconds' but that's just for speed and simplicity of communication
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,004
Post Likes
2,279
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
I know a lot of referees that refuse to give a straight answer when asked how long is left close to the end of a game... I don' really understand why and it appears to me (and players) like the ref is not being transparent, which I can't see being a good thing.

I will refuse if I get asked by every single player, every 30 bloody seconds :mad:

I will just point to the last player I told and say "ask him".
 

smeagol


Referees in America
Joined
Apr 20, 2012
Messages
672
Post Likes
76
Location
Springfield, IL
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
If I'm asked for time I'll say something like "my watch says 2 minutes" or "we are on 38 minutes", and they can interpret that how they want, but I don't believe I'm making any commitment as to when the game will actually end (I'm giving them the same info they would get from a stadium clock).
I always give the time at the moment it is asked, and I get puzzled looks when my answer to someone right after a try is different to what it is immediately prior to the subsequent kickoff.
If you want to be "clever", if a player questions continued play at a penalty in the red, something along the lines of "I'm sure you know the law that we can't end on a penalty, right?"... will the player admit they don't know the laws or just go with it?
In my scenario last weekend, a player did question why the game hadn't ended. I answered "the ball was kicked to touch from a penalty, we're having the lineout." I could tell the players didn't know the law, I was just wary of the line between coaching and clarifying law.
 

Ciaran Trainor


Referees in England
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
2,802
Post Likes
332
Location
Walney Island
Current Referee grade:
Level 7
Had a 65-5 game last week so the young visiting stand off had plenty of kick off practice.
No matter how many times I hinted to kick it the other way or grubber it he ignored me and kept dollying it up to the 22 where the opposition just ran it straight back.🤷‍♂️
 

BikingBud


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
640
Post Likes
224
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Had a 65-5 game last week so the young visiting stand off had plenty of kick off practice.
No matter how many times I hinted to kick it the other way or grubber it he ignored me and kept dollying it up to the 22 where the opposition just ran it straight back.🤷‍♂️
It's what the coach told him to do?

Not equipped to understand and vary the game.

Just do what the coach says, you would never see that at international level.........oh wait a minute:censored:
 

SimonSmith


Referees in Australia
Staff member
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
9,277
Post Likes
1,389
I will refuse if I get asked by every single player, every 30 bloody seconds :mad:

I will just point to the last player I told and say "ask him".
"About 30 seconds less than when he asked me" with an exasperated look tends to kill the questions.
 
Top